How To Prepare Your Kids for a World Full of Cults | With NXIVM Whistleblowers Sarah & Nippy

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Hello, welcome to the How to Deal podcast where we talk about all of the insane things

that we are navigating as parents in the modern world.

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And we get a few tips here and there and some encouragement and some inspiration of what

we can be doing as parents to help give our kids what it is they need from us.

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Today, I have some super special guests, my friends, Sarah and Nippy, Sarah Edmondson and

Anthony Nippy Ames.

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have experienced cultic abuse at the hands of Keith Renieri of the NXIVM cult, and then

blew the whistle and helped put him behind bars.

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They are the subjects of the HBO documentary series, The Vow, which chronicles their

experiences of cultic abuse at the hands of Keith Renieri.

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And they are hosts of the A Little Bit Culty podcast.

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They're on a mission to help educate parents about cultic abuse and empower as many of us

as possible.

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to help educate our kids about the red flags, what to look out for, and how we ourselves

can leave situations where we are experiencing some form of abuse from a group.

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Welcome, Sarah and Nippy.

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Thank you so much for having us.

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I've missed you.

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Yeah, and congratulations on...

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Thank you.

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I need all the congratulations and help I can get.

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You all are the experts, so I'll let you take the lead.

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Just kidding.

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Can you share with us sort of a summary of what it was that you experienced in the NXIVM

cult?

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Just a little bit about your story and what led you to this mission that you're on.

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And then we're gonna talk a little bit about cultic abuse, what it is, and what we as

parents can do to help potentially prevent our children from ending up in that situation.

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Absolutely.

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Should I do the short version?

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If you can.

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I'd like to see you The elevator pitch.

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I've had to hone this because we're new to Atlanta and people are often like, what, you

have a podcast?

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Well, what's it about?

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And then I have to say, cults.

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And then I was like, well, how, you know, I'm going to shorten it for when we're at the

baseball field.

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So the short version is that Nippy and I were both in a personal and professional

development program, 12 and 16 years off and on, respectively.

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And

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This was a really wonderful program for many years.

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was called Executive Success Programs.

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We were both coaches.

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We were traveling internationally.

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We were helping people through their limiting beliefs.

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It was a goal setting program.

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thought we were changing the world.

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Many, many red flags that we missed along the way, which we can get into.

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In 2017, things had become so...

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strange.

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There were so many red flags that got piled up and piled up until we could not deny these

things any any further.

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And we realized through a series of frank conversations with some other people who were

disgruntled and concerned, the full picture of what was going on, which is in short, the

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next year executive success programs, which is a program we taught under next year, which

what most people know are called known to be known as that was essentially a front for

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the leader, Keith Raniere, to, in essence, um abuse, in some cases, uh traffic and sex

traffic uh women mostly, but also uh men were abused and hurt as well.

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And this all culminated in essentially him getting greedy.

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And not only had he been doing this for years and decades, actually, he decided to uh

brand women with his initials.

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and that is what ultimately ended things for Nexium because I was branded and that's

actually not what woke me up but realizing the symbol on my body was his initials in a

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monogram and myself and Nippy and a few others decided to blow the whistle we went to the

New York Times that led to a to ex what's it called when you bring someone back from

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Mexico?

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Extradite.

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Extradite thank you.

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I tried him from Mexico where he'd been on the run and there was a six week trial, a four

hour deliberation and Keith Rennary now sits in jail for 120 years.

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And all of this was documented in the vow, which came out on HBO, as you mentioned.

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Five years probation too.

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yeah, he got five years probation, which is key.

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uh And Casey survives 120 years.

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He's on probation for five more.

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This all came out in the vow, which came out during COVID.

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And that's when we'd stopped.

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We were both actors.

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We'd stopped acting because of COVID.

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And then we decided to start a podcast to share the conversations we were already having

with experts and other survivors.

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And now that's what we do full time.

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So that's the shortest version I can.

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was pretty good.

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Just to set the stage.

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so good.

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There's so many layers there, you know, I think the experience of joining something, a

movement, a community, a group that is inspiring, you know, like that's step one of

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joining a cult is not signing up for some bizarre ritualistic, you know, like it's being a

part of something that feels meaningful.

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and then being invested in it, deeply invested in it, discovering things are not as they

seem.

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Yes, and the more you're invested, the harder it is to see those red flags because you

don't want to see them.

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Similar to an abusive relationship.

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Absolutely.

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Because at that point there's no easy solution.

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Oh, I now have to leave the people I have dedicated my life to and leave the mission I've

dedicated my life to and there's incredible loss that comes with doing what you did.

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Yeah, a lot of people have to do an about face on a lot of things that they double down

on, triple down on.

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And your pride and ego will get in the way of that.

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Even when you transcend it, your pride and ego took a beating and, you know, in their

shame and all the things that are life lessons, right?

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In the end, yeah.

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I just have so much respect for you both and I know you've taken beatings on like every

side of all of them Yeah, it's not fun.

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It's not fun to call out abuse.

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It's not fun to do

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I think we always have this like Hollywood narrative about what that looks like like it's

a heroic act and you're gonna like stand up and say like this person's a bad guy and

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everyone's gonna be like my gosh and then Justice happens and then there's a resolve but

the truth is is that when we address abuse in any context But definitely in a context

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where there's a community involved

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There's like the six-headed dragon of denial comes out and it comes out at you because

you're ruining the the the anesthetized fun.

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Yeah, and the group really was like a group that was made up of really good people who

thought they were doing good things.

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And the abuse came from Keith and that had a trickle down effect in terms of the way we

all treat each other and coach each other and in essence, gaslight each other to be

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better.

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we all were doing it under the guise of we're helping each other.

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This is what it looks like.

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We didn't know better.

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The benefit, if you want to call it that, or the wisdom.

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that I think we have is we've been both people.

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We've been the people defending it and we felt right when we defending it and we felt

right when we were taking it down.

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We felt like we doing the good thing.

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So when people were loyal and bashing us, I understood them.

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I understood that they were coming from a good place.

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They were doing good in their minds.

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No one really thinks that they're the evil one.

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So if you can get past kind of the slings and arrows of being

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you know, your character slandered and get in there and understand their perspective, they

think they're doing good and start to speak to that person in a reasonable way where

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you're not being hyperbolic and mean or whatever.

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think most people have the capacity to self-correct.

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I think most do.

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Some, I think, are better off living in the delusion because it's too hard for them to do

in about face.

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And there's some people that are still loyal that I wouldn't even attempt to talk to

because...

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I might have the right message, I'm the wrong person.

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So I've decided I'm gonna leave that alone as best I can and just stick to, I can put

language and define it for other people so they can have that moment of, shit, I do that.

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Right, yeah.

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that's a lesson in serenity.

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What is it that I actually have control over?

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What do I not have control over?

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And that's relational serenity of like, who do I have a voice with?

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Who can hear me?

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direct conflict with my primordial impulses.

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All of us.

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One kind of point that I think that has been true for you all in this journey is that

you've...

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You haven't just survived this cult and called it out and you know, blah, blah.

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But you've also gone on sort of this learning expedition of listening to other people who

survived other situations and kind of like, you know, the way that I have with attachment

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nerded out very specific, you know, you all have nerded out on cultic abuse or high

control groups.

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Can you give us kind of what at this point your definition is of a cult and of cultic

abuse?

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Like how do you summarize that at this point?

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Did you know that the cult experts in the field that we're in do not have a definition

that they can all agree upon?

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Yeah, there's not like, this is what it is.

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It's like, there's ego and pride in this space too.

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Believe it or not.

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Yeah.

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There, there's basically a number of different sort of approaches to understanding the

behaviors or the

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the systems in which a group operates or it could even be a person, like two people and

how they operate.

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And there's a number of experts that we've kind of leaned on a lot because we're experts

from our experience, but we didn't go to school for this.

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um Although I will say, I feel like we're a lot as if I have gone to school, the school of

our own podcast.

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And yes.

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but yeah, keep going.

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But just, that's actually one of our goals in the book that we're writing now.

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So we, um as you know, I think I sent you a copy of Scarred, it was just my memoir and

that sort of, you know, my whole journey of how I got in and how I got out.

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But we've learned so much since starting the podcast, doing a little bit culty, that we

wanted to try to encapsulate it all into one resource.

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Because when we got out, there were lots of resources, but it was a lot of,

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academic approaches to cults and coercion and a ton of, and this has grown now even more

so documentaries and now podcasts, there's a lot of stuff to wade through, you know, and

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to find the things that really resonate.

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So we were trying to condense it and distill it so that somebody like you who's got kids

and you want your kids to go to college and be safe, you know, or.

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your neighbor who has a kid in college or who's like just joined the group that seems a

little fanatical and they're worried about how to, you know, talk to them about it without

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alienating them or somebody like us who just gets out of a cult and they want to

understand what was that?

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How did it happen?

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Right?

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How did it happen to me?

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How did I miss the red flags?

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I thought it was smart.

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I think I still think I'm smart.

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And if he's, you know, Ivy league grad, how did that happen to him?

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But, you know, it has a certain connotation, you know.

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I think you're, I'm so excited for this book because it's you distilling like this world

of information into something that people can actually utilize in order to protect

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themselves and their loved ones.

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substantiating it with the examples in our episode.

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know, and one of the things, you know, when you asked your question, immediately question

it popped into my head is you nerd out in the attachment.

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We nerd out and the cult stuff.

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And there's some parallels.

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one of the things I've for sure notice is human beings are not that mysterious as much as

they like to pretend or whatever.

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Like you, you're not.

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that special in terms of how it happens and you're susceptible just like anyone else and

unless you are going somewhere else and getting educated in a way that's different than

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most people, you're gonna have some blind spots and saying that you don't only fortifies

them.

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So, you know, I've kind of figured out like, you know, through this process of like who

you can talk to directly, who you can kind of indirectly talk to.

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I find in our space, you know,

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people that are the air quote experts are human too.

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I'll just park it there.

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um And I, and they've certainly done a lot of things that have helped me and put language

to my situation.

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just think, um,

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Being able to encapsulate what they say and another perspective is what we've been able to

do, I think, fairly successful.

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I don't think it's presumptuous to say, think Sarah and I come across as pretty relatable

in a sense of like, well, shit, if they fell for it, maybe I did too, or maybe someone I

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know, because they don't.

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seem they can relate to us yeah they can relate to us and i don't think that's

presumptuous i think that's what was that it's pretty fair yeah

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are that, you know, these things only happen to these types of people.

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What really exactly not very smart, undereducated, whatever, whatever.

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I think.

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You know, this is part of my 18 plus years in the clinic is I know that's not true.

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Like that's just not true.

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And I know you've talked in your book a little bit about how in fact people that are often

recruited for these groups are charismatic, high energy, high talent, high capacity,

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because that's what helps keep a group like this going and learning.

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And, you know, in my own journey, I've experienced, you know, I grew up in high control

religion, so I have that experience also.

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I was a child.

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So it was easier to, you know, kind of understand, look back and be like, that's how I got

in Indoctrinated And I was very young, but I had an abusive, intimate relationship.

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And, you know, I think that surprises people sometimes because I've always been very

strong-willed, but it, you know, I think that's really important that everyone knows like

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this can happen to anyone.

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We don't want to believe that because it's scary.

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Like this is.

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are very, such common myths.

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That's actually another chapter of our book.

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We're gonna take a wrecking ball to that.

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Busting all the myths.

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I mean, the fact is that cults, it depends on the group, but will take anybody.

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generally they want numbers, right?

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So they want numbers of people so that they can exploit and they can have money coming in

and they always need fresh blood, right?

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Or fresh meat, which hate to say it like that, but that's how they, how...

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leaders see new recruits and that that can be a weak and vulnerable lost dumb person.

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It can be a smart high achieving.

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I was taught to just to look for the bright lights.

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In fact, I preferred to bring people in who were high achieving and already successful and

in nexium terms would be called a producer.

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In other words, doing things in the world, creating things because then we could grow

faster.

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And I wanted to be aligned with people who were doing

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Yes.

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and weren't broken and needing a bunch of help because that took more of my energy also.

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Like, so that's how I recruited.

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But, um, back to your earlier question in terms of what defines a cult and what actually a

cult is.

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Like I said, there's these, there's all these different approaches depending on who you

ask, but the way we see it now is, and this has changed over the four years of doing the

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podcast is even not even looking so much at the word cult because people overuse it.

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I mean, we're still using it our podcast is a little bit called D.

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But yeah, like, they can, if people throw it around and make jokes about things like,

well, you know, orange theory is a little culty, which it is, which it is in our opinion.

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Is it a full blown cult where you're going to have to drink cyanide laced flavor aid,

which is the Kool-Aid reference that we all know from, from Jones.

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Definitely not yet.

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But so it's like, we're looking at what a group does in its behavior.

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What, how does it treat people?

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What are you asked to do?

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And there's a checklist.

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So we try to share the checklist, and so the people can relate it to whatever they're in

and understand.

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why we try not to give this solid definition is because people go, well, because you look

at things like there's a charismatic leader, for example.

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I'll just say that again, just so you can cut it.

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uh So people, what was I saying?

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So with the checklist, what can be dangerous about that is people might look at it, and

because

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their group may or may not do one of the things, they can say, well, OK, it's not a cult.

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For example, most groups, and people know this, is that there's a charismatic leader.

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If there's a group that there's a leadership board or an executive board and it's not one

person, they go see it's not a cult because it's not one leader.

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And something like QAnon, for example, people say it's not a cult because it's not a

leader, but it's a very unhealthy, toxic, ideological.

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Shed show.

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mean, Keith created a board, but Keith was the board.

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It wasn't like people stood up to him.

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So he had the front of an air quote board, but I don't think it was necessarily served

what a board normally does, which is checks and balances.

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Cause I think they probably would have rejected the notion of branding people with his

initials had the board been transparent.

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think there'd have been a little pushback.

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A little bit of pushback.

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Yeah, so there's, there's, it's usually a group, it's a movement, it's, there's a shared

commitment to a, to an ideology or what some people call a transcendent belief system may

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or may not be religious.

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that, and that, that belief system or that dogma has the ultimate meaning, the ultimate

purpose, all the answers to life's questions.

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And there's no room for questioning that and for, just demands total loyalty.

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And those are some of the things.

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that we look at.

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And there's like red specific red flags and specific behaviors that kind of enforce all

those things.

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Did you want to add something?

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No, it's helpful to I frame it.

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I think it's a good way to frame it is it's not so much cult as abuses of power and the

abuses of power that go on in cults aren't proprietary to cults.

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They can go on in your everyday workplace, everywhere else.

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So if you can isolate what those abuses of power are, number one, you can't question the

authority.

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And listen, when you can't question anything, it's a slippery slope.

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So even if you get like a little bit of pushback and it's your issue, like just really pay

attention to what happens when you question the authority.

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Is it welcome?

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Are they having a civil discourse?

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Are they shutting you down?

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Are they even at worst, are they making it your issue because you have doubts?

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Things like that I think are the number one because they want to stifle inquiry into

critical thinking as much as they can while pretending to be proponents of it.

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So I'm curious what you all think about this, where that goes in my mind as a parent is

that it's really important for me that my relationship with my children is based on mutual

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trust and not on my control over them or their obedience to me.

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And I think that's a shift from, you know, some of what I grew up and I grew up in like

the James Dobson kind of era of like children are to obey their parents.

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Parents are supposed to be in control of their children.

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uh

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behavioral model and what I've learned through the attachment research is that's not a

secure attachment.

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Secure attachment happens when a caregiver is able to be a guide and a support and to

create structure.

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But the structure is not designed to cultivate a sense of control over the child.

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The structure is designed to help the child develop.

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And so, you know, when my children push back on something, I don't

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I that as a character flaw in them or as a threat to my authority.

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I see that as, oh, you have your own thoughts and opinions and sometimes you're right.

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Sometimes it is.

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you know, I am missing something or I'm seeing something wrong.

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And so anyway, I see that as one of the areas that I am helping my children to be a little

bit inoculated from a situation of abuse is that I want it to be normal for my kids to

263

: 00:21:24

question me, my authority, other authorities around them, and to not experience sort of

that narcissistic reaction to that questioning that makes them feel like it's bad and

264

: 00:21:35

wrong to question the authority.

265

: 00:21:36

Do you have thoughts on that?

266

: 00:21:38

Oh, it's so true.

267

: 00:21:39

got such a...

268

: 00:21:39

Yeah, I'm not good at that.

269

: 00:21:43

You know, there's certain things that I find when, particularly my elders, my six-year-old

is a non-factor, but my 11-year-old...

270

: 00:21:52

Coming into his own.

271

: 00:21:53

...does things.

272

: 00:21:55

I'm authoritative, I think, sometimes.

273

: 00:21:58

I'm hey, listen, that's not okay.

274

: 00:21:59

You don't do that.

275

: 00:22:01

You know, and I make the distinction of...

276

: 00:22:05

I like his questions and I make room for that, but I think sometimes I'm like, listen,

this isn't okay.

277

: 00:22:10

You can't come up and do this, this and this and this.

278

: 00:22:12

And I set a boundary.

279

: 00:22:13

don't know, I don't know if it's...

280

: 00:22:17

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, Yeah.

281

: 00:22:20

No, no.

282

: 00:22:21

I think we do have to guide our children.

283

: 00:22:26

Absolutely.

284

: 00:22:27

I mean, we all do.

285

: 00:22:28

Part of that is again, this insane thing we're doing.

286

: 00:22:30

It's like, my gosh, please don't question me.

287

: 00:22:32

We don't have time for this question.

288

: 00:22:35

Like I have to get you here and you there and we have to make sure, you know, there's so

much going on.

289

: 00:22:40

I think it's important that we are guiding our children and that they feel the freedom to

question us.

290

: 00:22:47

Car rides are great.

291

: 00:22:49

Go on.

292

: 00:22:50

I just let him go and then he vents and I go yeah and then I'll apologize for some things

and I'll give him an origin of the principle of why I am the way that I am some with him

293

: 00:22:59

sometimes and he's very reasonable and then I'll be like hey listen sometimes I'm gonna

get that way but here's why and I apologize.

294

: 00:23:07

we're working on it.

295

: 00:23:09

I have the whole metaphor of putting your hands up and say push back on it when I push on

you you push back but when I go like this you follow me right?

296

: 00:23:19

But you guess who used to do that?

297

: 00:23:20

Keith used to do that.

298

: 00:23:21

It's a great example.

299

: 00:23:23

Of like, working with people.

300

: 00:23:25

Well, you know, I give you something to resist.

301

: 00:23:27

As a kid, you're going to resist it.

302

: 00:23:28

But if I don't do that, you're going to follow, probably.

303

: 00:23:32

Because a lot of things I think I do do that are good example.

304

: 00:23:34

I just think I undermine myself when I go into that, hey, we're going now, bro.

305

: 00:23:38

You know, I get that whole thing.

306

: 00:23:40

You know?

307

: 00:23:41

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

308

: 00:23:42

I make allowance for my failures.

309

: 00:23:43

But I want him to think.

310

: 00:23:45

He thinks.

311

: 00:23:45

So I like his thoughts.

312

: 00:23:47

Like, Dad, I think you're wrong on this one.

313

: 00:23:49

I'm like, you're right.

314

: 00:23:50

So, you know, we have that relationship.

315

: 00:23:52

Yeah,

316

: 00:23:53

you can question you.

317

: 00:23:54

It is not about you being the all-knowing parent, which I think is sort of that structure

of the abusive relationship.

318

: 00:24:05

It's like, don't want my kids to become so accustomed to that structure in their childhood

that it makes sense to them when they relate to other people.

319

: 00:24:13

I think that's a piece we can do.

320

: 00:24:14

That's not all of it.

321

: 00:24:15

You can be raised in a home that's not authoritarian and still end up in a cultic abuse

situation.

322

: 00:24:20

I think that's one piece.

323

: 00:24:21

is a piece.

324

: 00:24:21

And for me, as somebody who was raised super non-authoritarian by former ex hippies who

had, you know, very, and by the way, love my childhood, my parents are great, but it was

325

: 00:24:33

very like, and, and, not but and, but then when I got to school and when I got to school,

I was like looking for more like structure and more answers.

326

: 00:24:47

And in fact,

327

: 00:24:48

ESP, which is executive success programs, the program I started in, in many ways, like it

was saying you're learning to think for yourself and critical thinking, but it actually

328

: 00:24:58

was giving me a framework of belief system that was pretty rigid.

329

: 00:25:03

And I liked that.

330

: 00:25:04

Mm-hmm.

331

: 00:25:05

mean, is it, do you think that you needed more structure from your parents?

332

: 00:25:11

Would you have been less vulnerable to the ESP program, do you think?

333

: 00:25:16

think the thing that made me the most vulnerable was that I was just kind of a nerd

growing up.

334

: 00:25:24

Like was not cool.

335

: 00:25:26

And I had big red glasses and I had braces.

336

: 00:25:29

And I was not cool.

337

: 00:25:32

And I was an only child until I was nine, then my dad remarried and I had a brother.

338

: 00:25:35

But in that time, I was just very lonely.

339

: 00:25:37

Like I used to just want like a best friend and like to be part of the cool group.

340

: 00:25:41

So like that need for belonging and

341

: 00:25:44

fitting in was probably the most part of my susceptibility.

342

: 00:25:51

And then also that in combination with finding like the answers, the answers to life's

biggest questions.

343

: 00:26:00

The student and you.

344

: 00:26:02

Yeah, I'm a totally, I used to highlight my notes and sell them in the university.

345

: 00:26:08

Like that's entrepreneurial as well, but also like.

346

: 00:26:12

My notes were that good, people would pay for them because I took such good notes for

studying and stuff.

347

: 00:26:17

So this is before AI for those who are listening and don't understand what that was.

348

: 00:26:21

We took notes and we memorized them and then we did tests.

349

: 00:26:25

So there was that.

350

: 00:26:26

And then there's susceptibility.

351

: 00:26:28

Let's go down this tangent for a second.

352

: 00:26:29

For me was my, I was a seeker.

353

: 00:26:32

I'd read the Celestine prophecy and done the artist's way.

354

: 00:26:34

And I believed in growth and potential and watering the plant within me.

355

: 00:26:39

And that I could be the best version of myself.

356

: 00:26:42

but I needed a roadmap and Nexium provided me with a roadmap and it was like, I felt like

we had the best one.

357

: 00:26:48

I didn't realize that all these other groups out there also thought that they were the

best one or the only path or the one true way, which by the way is a big red flag of any

358

: 00:26:55

group says that they have all the answers to life's biggest questions and that's probably

not true.

359

: 00:27:01

I love that red flag and I think that's going to be maybe hard for some people to do.

360

: 00:27:05

It's because there are so many groups and religions where that's the kind of cornerstone.

361

: 00:27:12

The cornerstone.

362

: 00:27:14

We have, you know, the truth and other people don't have the truth.

363

: 00:27:18

But I think that's a really important flag to share is that anytime that an organization,

its identity is around, we're right and everyone else is wrong.

364

: 00:27:29

Big flag.

365

: 00:27:30

Big flag.

366

: 00:27:31

Especially if that also means that they were right because they had a direct line to God

or Jesus.

367

: 00:27:36

That's, or any prophet or messiah.

368

: 00:27:39

Normally the dogma becomes more important.

369

: 00:27:43

ah The dog is important than the people.

370

: 00:27:45

That's another flag.

371

: 00:27:47

So that's important.

372

: 00:27:49

before I forget about what makes a cult a cult, one thing that I think is really important

is that the group never is fully forthright about what the group is.

373

: 00:27:58

So there's a bait and switch.

374

: 00:27:59

you know, this is just a wine club, but it's actually, you know, the first step in getting

people to do a Bible study thing.

375

: 00:28:06

Or...

376

: 00:28:06

And a caveat to that.

377

: 00:28:08

Yeah.

378

: 00:28:08

The people promoting it do believe it is though.

379

: 00:28:12

Right?

380

: 00:28:12

So...

381

: 00:28:13

If I'm not transparent about my intent, about what I'm doing, but I know that I can get

Sarah to look authentic about the thing that I'm fronting, it just, it makes people less

382

: 00:28:29

suspicious because Sarah is promoting it truly as the good thing.

383

: 00:28:33

And I've leveraged my trust with Sarah to go out and be a salesperson because I know that

maybe,

384

: 00:28:39

my real intent can come out in my communication or whatever.

385

: 00:28:42

Are you being the bad guy?

386

: 00:28:43

lost the metaphor.

387

: 00:28:44

Yeah, the bad guy.

388

: 00:28:44

I'm playing the person with bad intent.

389

: 00:28:46

I'm trying to get something from you in a coercive way.

390

: 00:28:50

I'm going to get someone like Sarah, who's a good salesperson, to go out there and sell it

earnestly.

391

: 00:28:55

And there's no bad intent with Sarah.

392

: 00:28:57

And I know that.

393

: 00:28:58

this is, this to me is, what I was talking about with Sarah this morning, the real kind of

rub in the psychopathy of these people is,

394

: 00:29:08

You can't really project the malevolence into them because you don't have it.

395

: 00:29:11

They know that and they prey on your benevolence knowing that your benevolence is going to

hide their malevolence and it's a very hard thing for people who don't have that bone in

396

: 00:29:23

their body dark psychology to project that kind of malevolence into that person.

397

: 00:29:28

you aren't a sociopath, you do not seek delight in dominating other people and abusing

other people, it's hard to register that someone who is acting like they care about you is

398

: 00:29:41

actually strategically using you.

399

: 00:29:44

And and to take it a step further Trying to hurt you and trying to hurt other people

Because your existence hurts them That's what they're motivated.

400

: 00:29:55

It's painful It's painful for them to see other people happy and they need to go deal with

that because there's something in their psychology.

401

: 00:30:02

That's just Wired wrong Yeah, and I don't know how many of those another podcast another

experts I don't know how many of those people are walking around in positions of power

402

: 00:30:14

And to add to that, think when we were talking earlier about what makes people

susceptible, and this is something actually that I'm still working on because we just went

403

: 00:30:23

through another experience where we missed a bunch of red flags, not in a cult setting,

but just with somebody who like didn't have our best interests at heart, maybe is the best

404

: 00:30:31

way to put it.

405

: 00:30:32

Yeah.

406

: 00:30:33

And we missed it.

407

: 00:30:33

We missed it again.

408

: 00:30:34

But I had to go like, how did I miss it?

409

: 00:30:37

was like, well, I didn't.

410

: 00:30:38

I just gave this guy the benefit of the doubt.

411

: 00:30:41

When certain things happened, I was like,

412

: 00:30:43

I must be having a bad day.

413

: 00:30:46

And I realized that I did that a lot in NXIVM.

414

: 00:30:48

I had internal gut things go on that I was like, is that?

415

: 00:30:55

No, it can't be.

416

: 00:30:57

No.

417

: 00:30:57

And I dismissed it because I didn't think it was possible.

418

: 00:31:00

So it's in combination with what Nibby just said about I couldn't even project the bad

intent.

419

: 00:31:05

But then also when things were weird, I wrote it off and made excuses.

420

: 00:31:10

Also because I don't want to rock the boat.

421

: 00:31:11

This is where it's so messy because it's really good to have space for human messiness.

422

: 00:31:17

know, like people make mistakes.

423

: 00:31:19

They do have bad days.

424

: 00:31:20

Like there's a generosity there that I think is a part of how we relate securely to each

other.

425

: 00:31:26

And when that is happening as a pattern over time or in specifically, you know, maybe more

dire or disturbing ways.

426

: 00:31:39

it is important that we're paying attention.

427

: 00:31:41

And what it sounds like with this other situation you're describing is you paid attention.

428

: 00:31:45

You may have missed it for a period of time, but you didn't miss it all the way.

429

: 00:31:50

You were collecting information, and then you hit a point where the information became a

pattern, and you said, learned.

430

: 00:31:57

And I'd like to next time not have it become a pattern and just get out on the first

indication because it costs us a lot of money.

431

: 00:32:07

We rehashed this a bunch of times.

432

: 00:32:09

One of the things I think too that's making a lot of

433

: 00:32:14

decision making a little bit difficult is we aren't going to an office every day and

producing our podcasts.

434

: 00:32:20

We aren't seeing people that we're working with, hearing them talk about, my kid had a

game today or whatever.

435

: 00:32:25

Like there's not a camaraderie in the production thing.

436

: 00:32:28

Every kind of uh interaction is transactional and there's not that human interaction where

like one person has an emotional relationship to, if I don't do my job, Nippy and Sarah

437

: 00:32:42

don't get their podcasts out and their kids don't eat.

438

: 00:32:44

I mean, it's never been that extreme, but I think there's something missing in our culture

today where that human dynamic is going on.

439

: 00:32:51

And then maybe that translates well for predators online because they don't really get to

reveal their, their have to reveal or perform in a way where they're checking the boxes

440

: 00:33:01

professionally.

441

: 00:33:01

But how are you in the office?

442

: 00:33:03

Are you a person that embodies like if we're trying to do a humanitarian podcast to reach

people, do you even embody that?

443

: 00:33:09

Do I have someone in my peripheral that's sucking my energy and how's it.

444

: 00:33:13

There's so many variables in the system that I think are lost in how things are being

produced today.

445

: 00:33:20

I, you everyone's worried about AI and all that stuff.

446

: 00:33:22

think, you know, if we figure this thing out collectively, I think we're going to be back

in the office.

447

: 00:33:28

I think the human thing is going to be a premium again.

448

: 00:33:31

think if we, if this capitalism gone wild where every single interaction between human

beings has to have a price tag to it down to, you know, oh, you

449

: 00:33:43

Bought a coffee, you did the like, know, every single transaction has to be monetized.

450

: 00:33:48

It's not, it's gonna destroy us.

451

: 00:33:50

And I think if we can get back into the human thing, a lot of those things can come back

in a meaningful way.

452

: 00:33:55

And maybe mistakes like that just don't happen.

453

: 00:34:00

Interviews in person.

454

: 00:34:01

our work just dovetails so close together.

455

: 00:34:04

It's like, to me, what's the greatest treasure that we have in humanity is our

relationships to each other.

456

: 00:34:10

And when we care more about power, control, consumerism, when those things get in between

us and each other, that's where things go dark.

457

: 00:34:23

And so the hope is that we can...

458

: 00:34:26

raise the next generation of kids who value connection more than control.

459

: 00:34:31

And, you know, I think part of that is how do we equip our kids to recognize when groups

are utilizing connection with them in order to control them.

460

: 00:34:46

Instead of genuinely, like you said, in community, like what are the flags?

461

: 00:34:50

So what are the other flags that you are teaching your kids to look out for?

462

: 00:34:55

in terms of abuse in general and group abuse or high control cultic abuse in specific.

463

: 00:35:03

So if you kind of follow a sort of a semi-linear path of some of the tactics that can be

done to people that will help us sort of track these things, and keep in mind, and we have

464

: 00:35:13

this trouble when we're writing the book, is that it's not linear.

465

: 00:35:17

So a lot of the tactics that a cult recruiter or leader might do to their followers or

potential recruit is not like, first we do this, and then we do that, and then we do that.

466

: 00:35:27

But I'm going to say it.

467

: 00:35:28

We're going to say it like that for the sake of, you know.

468

: 00:35:31

teaching.

469

: 00:35:32

teaching, but it's not always like this.

470

: 00:35:34

But some of the things let's put it, let's use the example.

471

: 00:35:38

Like a coach, the coach example.

472

: 00:35:41

Yeah.

473

: 00:35:41

What will help you set it up is the way these people work is they'll see a personality

type and process you accordingly.

474

: 00:35:49

So I'm not going to love, love bombing won't work on me.

475

: 00:35:52

Works on me.

476

: 00:35:53

Works on Sarah.

477

: 00:35:54

And I think they figure that out.

478

: 00:35:55

Right.

479

: 00:35:56

So they don't, they target me differently.

480

: 00:35:58

And these are the tactics that may or may not work for.

481

: 00:36:01

And this is just what's in their bag, I guess you could say.

482

: 00:36:04

Yeah, it's like a bag of tricks.

483

: 00:36:05

Thank you.

484

: 00:36:05

That's a point.

485

: 00:36:07

So for example, and I think this is a very common thing and something to look out for,

especially in sports or like if your kid is going into gymnastics or anything where they

486

: 00:36:15

have a private teacher, for example.

487

: 00:36:17

So let's just look at that example, whether it's a music teacher or a baseball coach or

gymnastics coach, whatever.

488

: 00:36:24

Is this person singling you out for any reason and praising you beyond

489

: 00:36:31

Like there should be some positive reinforcement like you're doing a good job or whatever,

but anything like you're the best, you're the most special, you are my prize, you are my

490

: 00:36:42

favorite.

491

: 00:36:44

And there should, kids should, especially get older, will get a hit of that's like, it's a

bit weird.

492

: 00:36:51

special attention, yeah.

493

: 00:36:53

There's a woman and she might be a good podcast guest for you, Amy Seltzman.

494

: 00:36:58

wrote something, special program for kids called How to Spot a Spider.

495

: 00:37:02

And so they use language that kids can relate to and that the spider is the predator.

496

: 00:37:07

Or I'm sure you've heard and talked about this, like the tricky person.

497

: 00:37:11

There's that feeling that you get.

498

: 00:37:13

So there's the love bombing.

499

: 00:37:14

Then there's the isolation.

500

: 00:37:16

Any time a coach wants to have one-on-one time with your child and nobody else is there,

that's just a red flag for me.

501

: 00:37:26

No reason for it.

502

: 00:37:27

No reason for it.

503

: 00:37:28

So being isolated.

504

: 00:37:29

And then there's things like, you know, there's physical isolation, but then there's also

emotional isolation, like having the person, having the kid feel like they shouldn't talk

505

: 00:37:38

to their parents about anything, about something specific.

506

: 00:37:41

Triangulating.

507

: 00:37:41

Triangulating, or saying things like, this is just between us, like, I'm gonna take you

for ice cream, it could just be our little secret.

508

: 00:37:47

you know, teaching kids, obviously.

509

: 00:37:49

And I know you talk about this, like, we don't do secrets.

510

: 00:37:54

Surprises, surprises, yes.

511

: 00:37:56

heavy.

512

: 00:37:56

Secrets feel heavy.

513

: 00:37:58

Surprises feel light and fluffy.

514

: 00:38:00

And you can't wait to tell them.

515

: 00:38:02

secrets are not good for our hearts.

516

: 00:38:05

Oh, that's so good.

517

: 00:38:06

Yeah, I'm going to add that component to it.

518

: 00:38:08

Not good for our hearts.

519

: 00:38:11

What else?

520

: 00:38:13

Those are some of the red flags I'd look for specifically with things like coaches,

keeping an eye out with your children.

521

: 00:38:19

That those.

522

: 00:38:22

Yes, pastors.

523

: 00:38:23

I just hold so many stories of abuse in my head over the years and so many of the abusers

or folks who are engaging in the abusive tactics are well-respected members of society.

524

: 00:38:37

And I think that's not the stereotype that we have.

525

: 00:38:39

um And so I actually don't tell my kids to look out for tricky behaviors.

526

: 00:38:44

tell, or tricky people, I tell them to look out for tricky behaviors.

527

: 00:38:47

Mm, smart.

528

: 00:38:49

That's good.

529

: 00:38:49

be a grandparent.

530

: 00:38:51

It can be you know an uncle a trusted friend a beloved youth pastor like unfortunately

That's how it goes down.

531

: 00:38:59

So I want to go hey if someone is you know making me believe that I am more special than

my brothers and sisters than my Teammates than the other students that's tricky behavior

532

: 00:39:13

because that will make it so that I feel really guilty if

533

: 00:39:18

don't do something they want to do.

534

: 00:39:20

That's what that's setting up.

535

: 00:39:21

Or the tricky behavior if someone is making me feel worse than everybody else, putting me

down and then putting me in a position where I feel like I'm trying to earn their

536

: 00:39:33

attention.

537

: 00:39:34

Or it's a tricky if they're trying to ask me to keep secrets or, you know, there's a...

538

: 00:39:42

they're asking me to violate some of the rules and not tell mom and dad.

539

: 00:39:46

Those are all tricky behaviors.

540

: 00:39:48

And I always like to say that someone who's doing a tricky behavior is, is acting in a way

that is scary or confusing and they might tell you lies.

541

: 00:40:00

So if someone's willing to do these tricky things, they're also willing to do tricks on

your brain about, you know, what they're going to do because a lot of that, that grouping

542

: 00:40:07

with kids involves, you know, if you

543

: 00:40:12

tell somebody this is what will happen to them.

544

: 00:40:15

Grats, you know, or promises.

545

: 00:40:17

If you do this, this is what I'll do for you.

546

: 00:40:20

just um finished listening to ah I'm Glad My Mom Died, Jeanette.

547

: 00:40:25

It's on my list, but I haven't read it yet.

548

: 00:40:27

Yeah.

549

: 00:40:28

there's just this point where she's talking about this producer who, you know, is making

her feel special and telling her all these things and, you know, but he doesn't follow

550

: 00:40:37

through on any of that.

551

: 00:40:38

Right.

552

: 00:40:39

So it's like he's giving us access to her body is giving her massages.

553

: 00:40:42

And it's just gross, gross, gross.

554

: 00:40:44

But so, you know, when when someone is being tricky, they're making promises and threats

that they won't keep.

555

: 00:40:51

And, know, you can come talk about those things and I will make sure that.

556

: 00:40:56

the scary thing doesn't happen.

557

: 00:40:58

And you know, the thing that they're promising you, they're not actually going to give

you.

558

: 00:41:02

So it's a fake kind of lure.

559

: 00:41:06

Future faking was the term.

560

: 00:41:12

Dr.

561

: 00:41:12

Romani.

562

: 00:41:13

Yeah, Dr.

563

: 00:41:13

Romani, she talks about how in the love bombing, there's this dangling of whatever they're

going to get.

564

: 00:41:19

So they got future faking.

565

: 00:41:22

It's going to be like this in the future.

566

: 00:41:25

Never is.

567

: 00:41:26

It's never better.

568

: 00:41:27

And this is more for the parents versus the kids.

569

: 00:41:30

But any organization that you're new to, they're

570

: 00:41:33

or group or if you're considering joining a particular thing and you're not sure about it,

do your research.

571

: 00:41:40

And even just saying is blank a cult?

572

: 00:41:42

The stuff will come up on Reddit and you'll, my general thing with that is whether smoke

there's fire.

573

: 00:41:49

And it's tricky because when we were in NXIVM, there was bad press and it got worse over

the years.

574

: 00:41:55

And first of all, we were discouraged to ever consume it because that would have been

unethical.

575

: 00:42:04

Knowing about it.

576

: 00:42:06

Yeah, we weren't consuming media at all, so we didn't know about it at all.

577

: 00:42:10

But there was times when I knew about it, but I didn't read it.

578

: 00:42:13

Or if I did read it on the sly, I was told that it was all a smear campaign from people

who were either gone crazy or were in love with Keith and couldn't have him because of

579

: 00:42:23

course he's celibate.

580

: 00:42:25

And this is like a common trope in these groups is that people leave and then they're

shunned, which is another red flag.

581

: 00:42:33

Can you come and go freely without being ostracized if you're no longer committed to the

group?

582

: 00:42:40

I did come and go, so it was kind of weird for me.

583

: 00:42:43

I left.

584

: 00:42:45

I had a fluid relationship with Which was a great example of had someone shown him the

checklist, he would say, it's not a call because I can come and go.

585

: 00:42:53

So they may have let Nippy come and go, but they wouldn't have let his personal harem.

586

: 00:43:00

I didn't have personal.

587

: 00:43:01

No, Keith wouldn't.

588

: 00:43:03

Keith's personal harem.

589

: 00:43:04

Yeah.

590

: 00:43:04

Yeah.

591

: 00:43:04

So Nipi wasn't part of the harem so he could come and go.

592

: 00:43:07

The women who moved to Albany to join his harem of spiritual wives.

593

: 00:43:12

Yeah, I was targeted differently too.

594

: 00:43:13

So it wasn't like...

595

: 00:43:15

Yeah.

596

: 00:43:17

Yeah.

597

: 00:43:17

important is that everyone plays a different role.

598

: 00:43:20

And I do think that in any organization where there is, you know, intent to harm at the

top, intent to use and control, that's what I would call that, that there is intentionally

599

: 00:43:36

characters who mystify the situation.

600

: 00:43:40

Well, of course we're not a cult.

601

: 00:43:41

Look at Nippy.

602

: 00:43:42

Nippy's gone.

603

: 00:43:43

He's been welcomed back.

604

: 00:43:44

Meanwhile, you know, Helen is not, right?

605

: 00:43:49

And so it, yes.

606

: 00:43:53

So it's confusing.

607

: 00:43:55

And I think that confusion piece is another flag.

608

: 00:44:00

Like if you feel a little bit confused about what's happening and you don't have clarity

on who's where and why, that's another flag.

609

: 00:44:08

And I think that tends to come later on, you know, in the process.

610

: 00:44:12

Yeah.

611

: 00:44:12

Yep.

612

: 00:44:13

What would you say to someone who was listening and going, oh, I mean, is my community a

little bit fuzzy?

613

: 00:44:23

Am I in a situation?

614

: 00:44:26

What would you say would be next steps that someone could take to kind of get clarity on

that?

615

: 00:44:32

Great question.

616

: 00:44:33

think the first thing to know is to not tell the leader or the pastor or the coach that

you're having these concerns, right?

617

: 00:44:43

That's a big problem.

618

: 00:44:44

Don't go directly to...

619

: 00:44:45

Yeah, don't go to your upline.

620

: 00:44:47

Don't go to the person who is in charge of you for whatever reason.

621

: 00:44:51

Go outside of the group, find someone who's left and ask them why they left or Google it,

like look on Reddit and see why people...

622

: 00:44:59

I I hate Reddit, but also that's a good...

623

: 00:45:02

place for people to post freely without repercussion, right?

624

: 00:45:06

So there may be people who've left who are too afraid to leave.

625

: 00:45:10

But usually, if it's a big enough group, there will be some sort of discussion group or

Facebook group or some way to contact someone who's left and find out why they left.

626

: 00:45:20

Or there will be.

627

: 00:45:22

Or there will be.

628

: 00:45:23

Because you're the first.

629

: 00:45:23

Yeah.

630

: 00:45:24

They'll do it again.

631

: 00:45:25

Yeah.

632

: 00:45:26

And if you do, and this is actually a whole section in the book, is waking up.

633

: 00:45:31

finding out if it's the right time to leave, leaving safely, how to access safely, how to

whistle blow, how to deal with the media, how to write a memoir, like all the things that

634

: 00:45:38

come after that has not been in any book that we've found.

635

: 00:45:43

But in that process, finding somebody outside the group for a lifeline to like run up to,

know, to run up by them, even look at some of the people who are cult experts and help

636

: 00:45:55

people, you know, get out or assess, like they've all written.

637

: 00:46:00

essays as to why certain groups and religions or whatever coaching programs, yoga studios

are culty and problematic and separate from the like all you know hitting all the check

638

: 00:46:14

checkboxes is and that's the other thing i'd say to someone who's like i don't know if

you're having that feeling that's an important thing to listen to because it may not even

639

: 00:46:25

do all these things it may just be a book club

640

: 00:46:28

that makes you feel a little bit ashamed when you're late.

641

: 00:46:32

You know, it's not a cult, but that's a culty tactic.

642

: 00:46:36

And the question is for that person is, you like that?

643

: 00:46:39

You know, if you're the kind of person that needs a bit of shame, because you raised

Catholic or something and you just need that to read the book and you don't mind it, fine.

644

: 00:46:48

But like, I don't want to feel that way.

645

: 00:46:51

I want to feel fine to show up.

646

: 00:46:54

What's that?

647

: 00:46:56

Yeah.

648

: 00:46:57

know, whether that's a, you know, a group or a one-on-one relationship or, you know, I

think that that respect.

649

: 00:47:06

The other thing I was thinking when you're in your advice is that's one of the main main

flags that I think of for my kids is anytime a group says you shouldn't have connections

650

: 00:47:15

with anyone outside of this group, you know.

651

: 00:47:19

If a group encourages you to cut ties, that should be a number one red flag.

652

: 00:47:23

We should have this written down somewhere all over.

653

: 00:47:24

Because the thing, the way that our book set up is like, here's the tactics and here are

the red flags that show you that this tactics being done.

654

: 00:47:31

So it's to summarize every episode has more than one example come out, but they do try to

separate families.

655

: 00:47:40

And NXIVM did that by holding trainings on major holidays uh like

656

: 00:47:46

right after Christmas or right after Thanksgiving.

657

: 00:47:49

people over the Thanksgiving weekend.

658

: 00:47:50

Yeah, they'd be forced to make a decision.

659

: 00:47:53

So I think those were not so subtle attempts.

660

: 00:47:55

I was sensitive to that.

661

: 00:47:56

So I decided I'm never going to do a training.

662

: 00:48:01

And I watched college football championships on New Year's Eve, so you weren't going get

me to miss that.

663

: 00:48:07

You had your loyalty.

664

: 00:48:08

oh

665

: 00:48:10

not very committed.

666

: 00:48:11

That's why I did not get his next stripe.

667

: 00:48:13

Nor did I care.

668

: 00:48:16

Well, and again, part of your, you know, protective factors that were there versus

vulnerable factors, and we all have all of those things.

669

: 00:48:23

No one is without vulnerability to abuse, and I would say we all have areas where there's

some protection.

670

: 00:48:29

And so you're a skeptic.

671

: 00:48:32

There was some skeptic.

672

: 00:48:33

and I left the organization in late 2003 and didn't return until 2006.

673

: 00:48:42

And I returned for work.

674

: 00:48:44

I didn't return for Keith Ranieri or the mission or anything like that.

675

: 00:48:48

when I came back, I kind of had where I began and the organization starts.

676

: 00:48:52

Nippy had his autonomy intact.

677

: 00:48:55

treated it like a company that I worked for.

678

: 00:48:58

Yeah.

679

: 00:48:59

Well, you know, there's, wonder how you feel about this concept, but I think there's

different layers of how sucked in you are into the thing.

680

: 00:49:09

My husband and I both grew up in high control religion, but we're wired very differently.

681

: 00:49:14

I'm just an all in person.

682

: 00:49:16

I am so enthusiastic about whatever it is I'm doing.

683

: 00:49:20

And so, you know, I'm drinking the Kool-Aid.

684

: 00:49:22

That's who I am.

685

: 00:49:24

I'm going to drink it and I'm going to serve it.

686

: 00:49:26

And I'm going to, you know,

687

: 00:49:28

And he just, he sat on the side, you know?

688

: 00:49:31

He wasn't upfront.

689

: 00:49:33

He wasn't gonna join in in the same way I did.

690

: 00:49:36

you know, for better or for worse, that's still how we both live life to some degree, you

know?

691

: 00:49:41

We meet new people and I'm like, oh my gosh, I love so-and-so and whatever.

692

: 00:49:44

And he's like, yeah, I seem nice.

693

: 00:49:46

And I'm like, you're not, you're not as nice as I am.

694

: 00:49:50

And that, the gift of my marriage is that we balance each other out in that.

695

: 00:49:54

And I've learned over the years that

696

: 00:49:57

nine times out of 10, when he's skeptical about someone early on, we find out later

something shady.

697

: 00:50:03

we think, I call it a sniffer, you So now we go into social situation and then I say, you

what'd think about so and so?

698

: 00:50:11

And he's like, yeah.

699

: 00:50:13

And then instead of thinking, he hasn't warmed up to them yet, I think that's a flag.

700

: 00:50:18

Trevor's yeah about someone.

701

: 00:50:19

That means there's something off.

702

: 00:50:21

And then there usually is.

703

: 00:50:22

So, you know, have different personalities and that's, you know,

704

: 00:50:26

But with our kids too, that's going to affect them differently of like, how are they

wired?

705

: 00:50:30

You know, are they really extroverted and like ready for the party?

706

: 00:50:34

They're going to be more vulnerable for getting into group situations.

707

: 00:50:38

Yeah, open people are gonna be.

708

: 00:50:40

Yep I think that's just, and this is why it's so important to have these conversations

with our kids, you know, and to say, hey, this is what abuse looks like in a friendship.

709

: 00:50:52

This is what it can look like in a close, you know, sweetheart relationship.

710

: 00:50:56

That's what I say with my kids.

711

: 00:50:57

And then this is what it can look like in an organization.

712

: 00:51:01

And that organization can have beautiful things to say, and your sweetheart can have

beautiful things to say, and your friend can have beautiful things to say.

713

: 00:51:08

But at the end of the day, we have to be mindful of, you know, is this person's intent or

aim to help me grow and become my fullest, truest, freest, authentic self?

714

: 00:51:21

Or is their ultimate aim for me to do their bidding, do their business, make them feel

good, you know, and to kind of keep our eyes and ears open for the difference because it's

715

: 00:51:36

a reality we all face.

716

: 00:51:39

was just laughing as you were talking, because I remembered an interaction I had with our

eldest, our 11-year-old this morning.

717

: 00:51:44

We woke up a little late, and I'm in charge of breakfast.

718

: 00:51:47

was, scrambled eggs are just the quickest.

719

: 00:51:49

And I made that.

720

: 00:51:50

And then he was like, mom, you forgot I don't eat scrambled eggs anymore.

721

: 00:51:54

was like, it's so hard to keep track, right?

722

: 00:51:56

Because they keep changing their mind.

723

: 00:51:57

He used to it all the time.

724

: 00:51:58

And I was like, Tryla, can you just try it?

725

: 00:52:01

Can you please just, because I put cheese in them, they might be good.

726

: 00:52:04

And he goes, mom.

727

: 00:52:05

You're not respecting my boundaries.

728

: 00:52:06

I said, no, I don't eat scrambled eggs anymore.

729

: 00:52:08

And I was like.

730

: 00:52:10

News to me.

731

: 00:52:11

No, well, that too.

732

: 00:52:13

I was like, appreciated him reminding me that I was not hearing him say no.

733

: 00:52:18

Like I want him to have boundaries.

734

: 00:52:21

Yeah.

735

: 00:52:22

Well, it's inconvenient to raise empowered children.

736

: 00:52:25

That's just the truth.

737

: 00:52:27

is far more, you know, adaptable to our schedules and our lives to raise children who are

disempowered and obedient and in fear of us.

738

: 00:52:39

Yes.

739

: 00:52:40

And that kind of authoritarian model is, it's tempting, but it's, and it isn't fulfilling.

740

: 00:52:50

And I think that's the message that I hope most parents take from this is that at the end

of the day, you when we raise our children empowered and connected, yes, it's messy.

741

: 00:52:59

And yes, you have to make another breakfast item because they've told you clearly I no

longer eat eggs.

742

: 00:53:04

But there's curdled eggs.

743

: 00:53:07

oh I mean, he's a guy.

744

: 00:53:11

Anyway, there's that collaborative kind of.

745

: 00:53:15

process over time you get to have rich, authentic connections with your children.

746

: 00:53:19

And they grow up not, you know, confused about who they are and what they like and, you

know, having to go through therapy realizing, wait, I never even liked scrambled eggs.

747

: 00:53:29

They just kept making me eat them.

748

: 00:53:30

You know, it's like, he knows what he likes.

749

: 00:53:34

Beautiful.

750

: 00:53:36

Well done.

751

: 00:53:36

And also so tiring for us.

752

: 00:53:42

You're doing an incredible job.

753

: 00:53:45

Yes.

754

: 00:53:48

Well, yeah, that's right.

755

: 00:53:48

None of us get to know.

756

: 00:53:49

It's an ongoing process that's unfolding.

757

: 00:53:52

I always like to tell people, as far as the wealth of knowledge on the research on

parenting, I know more than most and every day I am still going, sure hope this shot goes

758

: 00:54:07

in.

759

: 00:54:08

eh It's like a half court shot.

760

: 00:54:11

I hope that was right because if we don't get to know and there's some, you know,

uncertainty that comes with raising children.

761

: 00:54:19

Mm-hmm.

762

: 00:54:21

100%.

763

: 00:54:21

I actually have offline, I'd love to ask you one question on something I'm struggling with

right now, if you have two minutes after this.

764

: 00:54:27

OK.

765

: 00:54:30

do that.

766

: 00:54:32

Let's tell everybody how they can find you.

767

: 00:54:35

So where can people learn more and join you on journey of addressing.

768

: 00:54:41

have our own personal uh Instagram, Sarah Edmondson and YourAnthonyAims11, because he's

not Nippy there, which is confusing for people.

769

: 00:54:49

And then have a little bit culty, our own Instagram.

770

: 00:54:52

And then on my website, sarahedmondson.com, and a little bit culty.com, we also have a

resource section if people are looking to learn more about any of the things we talked

771

: 00:55:01

about.

772

: 00:55:02

Of course, all of our episodes are there, but there's like 250 plus episodes to go

through.

773

: 00:55:07

But you can skim around and find the things that resonate, especially the one we did with

you.

774

: 00:55:12

I thought it just was one of my absolute favorites.

775

: 00:55:14

We love that one.

776

: 00:55:15

Where you dissected our attachment styles and how that made us vulnerable.

777

: 00:55:19

It was definitely one of my most favorite episodes.

778

: 00:55:21

And Patreon.

779

: 00:55:22

And the Patreon, if you want to support us.

780

: 00:55:24

the thing I'm most excited about, think, we're most, we are both just working so hard on

is our next book.

781

: 00:55:29

And that, like I mentioned, will be hopefully really useful to a lot of people in

different stages of their.

782

: 00:55:37

either seeking journey and they want to do it safely or recovery journey if they're

already out of something or.

783

: 00:55:43

Cults for dummies is kind of what it.

784

: 00:55:45

A to Z.

785

: 00:55:46

Yeah.

786

: 00:55:46

How to.

787

: 00:55:47

It's not the name of it.

788

: 00:55:48

No.

789

: 00:55:48

cannot wait to read it.

790

: 00:55:50

Where can people pre-order on the A Little Bit Culty website?

791

: 00:55:54

at sarahadmanston.com slash book is the easiest place to pre-order.

792

: 00:55:59

Yeah, that's the easiest place to pre-order it.

793

: 00:56:01

And there is a title there that will change because we are restructuring the book to make

it as best as it can possibly be.

794

: 00:56:09

So we feel really good that we've put everything that we know in one spot.

795

: 00:56:15

Yes.

796

: 00:56:18

Yeah.

797

: 00:56:19

And the cultiness of the publishing industry.

798

: 00:56:22

yeah, absolutely.

799

: 00:56:23

Times list and all the stuff that is amorphous and weird.

800

: 00:56:28

Mm-hmm, absolutely.

801

: 00:56:30

It is such a gift.

802

: 00:56:32

I know people are gonna just be so thankful to have gotten this with them and I just am

so, I mean proud of you all.

803

: 00:56:38

It's a weird thing.

804

: 00:56:39

you.

805

: 00:56:40

I appreciate this.

806

: 00:56:41

And I feel like this is such an important audience, especially as parents and navigating

what we've been talking about, but also things like, you know, do we do Waldorf or

807

: 00:56:49

Montessori or like all the different programs and sort of dogmas around education itself?

808

: 00:56:55

It's important to have these.

809

: 00:56:58

Particularly now.

810

: 00:56:58

mean, yeah, you know, no school is immune to having their kids put in some sort of

political crossfire right now, even if it's not with the schools.

811

: 00:57:08

goes on to the parents at the schools.

812

: 00:57:10

It's very polarizing right now and I think it's a major disservice to our children to have

them anywhere close to that stuff.

813

: 00:57:18

You know, so.

814

: 00:57:21

Yeah.

815

: 00:57:25

doing what we can to help our children really understand what safe, nuanced community life

looks like.

816

: 00:57:33

know, what respect looks like, what safety looks like, you know, and that they, that it's

not our kids' jobs to pledge some form of allegiance to an ideology or a specific way or a

817

: 00:57:45

specific group that it's, you know.

818

: 00:57:48

Humanity, we're supposed to be taking care of each other.

819

: 00:57:52

Well, so good to see you all and.

820

: 00:57:54

see you too.

821

: 00:57:55

hope we get to meet in person one day.

822

: 00:57:59

Where are you located again?

823

: 00:58:01

Oh, that's what I thought.

824

: 00:58:02

Yes, Colorado.

825

: 00:58:03

We have to come.

826

: 00:58:05

I have never been.

827

: 00:58:06

My brother's in Colorado.

828

: 00:58:07

We'll make it there.

829

: 00:58:08

Can I take a picture of our screen, so we can hype it up?

830

: 00:58:15

One, two, Yay.

831

: 00:58:19

That's so cute.

832

: 00:58:20

my god, we're the cutest.

833

: 00:58:21

I'm going to stop recording.