How to Deal with Clutter & Be a More Present Parent | With Katy Wells

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Um, okay.

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Hi.

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What did you do to me?

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Did I consent to this?

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I'm not sure I consented to this.

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I am so excited for you to share your wisdom with all of these incredible parents that are

working to make their kids' lives more secure.

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Um, this is not my area of expertise and it was so helpful to think about.

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how the way that we create our environment is related to our mental health and affects our

mental health and therefore our kids.

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Tell us a little bit about how you got into this incredible space where you had all of

these wisdom nuggets in your book, Making Your Home a Happy Place.

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How did you get here?

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How did you come to this?

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Well, I think for a lot of us, it's often a long road.

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But really, one of the cruxes, I just remember standing in my son's doorway.

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And he must have been two at the time.

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My youngest was one.

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And he asked to play trains with me.

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And I heard myself say, not right now, buddy, for like the 30th time that day.

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And his face just crumpled.

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And it still brings tears to my eyes because I didn't think I would be a no mom.

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I mean, I really wanted to play with my kids.

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I wanted to read extra bedtime stories, play trains, build blocks, but I was so exhausted

from managing the house and the clutter, I had nothing left.

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And I really just, hated it.

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My motherhood early on was so far from the motherhood I had envisioned for myself.

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And I think that happens to a lot of us for a lot of different reasons.

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And I realized, know, clutter wasn't just about the stuff.

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It truly does.

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It steals our time and our energy and our happiness and our ability to show up and connect

and form these secure relationships with our kids.

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And at the time I was working full time and I couldn't quit my job.

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I couldn't afford to hire a professional organizer.

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And I had tried so many of the popular methods.

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Oh, you're sorry.

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Yeah.

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Okay, sorry, a new hand.

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Yeah, so I had tried everything.

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I had tried the marathon weekend, which honestly left me so resentful and exhausted

because I asked my husband, can you keep the kids occupied so I can like do this?

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And the mess and clutter were right back by like Tuesday.

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And it was so frustrating.

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I was like one step forward, eight steps back constantly.

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And I noticed a theme and a lot of the popular methods, which are still quite popular and

don't get me wrong, can still come in handy.

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You know, before we hit record, you and I were talking about how we both like

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tend to bypass a lot of surface level solutions and conversations because like I want to

get deep with people.

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And I think the same thing applies.

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Like checklists and stuff can be helpful.

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Bins and labels, yes, those can be helpful.

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But it's just we're addressing just part of it.

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when we are promised that these methods will solve our clutter problems and not talked

about the nuance, the reality of mess and clutter, when we fail at those repeatedly, we

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start to believe I can never do this.

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And we start to feel, again, resentful.

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shameful and it's not just me.

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I've worked with now thousands of women and families and parents who it's so it's hard.

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It's a hard place to be in.

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And you know, I realize all the methods out there were focusing on the stuff and my

background is in holistic wellness.

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My husband's a chiropractor by trade and we you know, our philosophy was like getting to

the root of the issue.

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Yes, a client patient might come in with knee pain and we can address that knee pain but

what's going on underneath the surface and how can we address the body as a whole?

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We saw so many miracles and I was so like, this works.

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And I was like, why don't I look at my home and myself the same way and look at the

emotions, the habits, the beliefs, the stories I had underneath the surface that were

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preventing me from going deep enough to make real sustainable change and make progress so

that I could be a yes mom.

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And just after months of implementing these own strategies and that didn't have to involve

weekend overhauls.

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I felt lighter.

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I felt my bubbly personality start to come back, which honestly I didn't think would

because I was so burdened and my mental health was so, especially inside my home was so

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struggling.

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And I felt like I could breathe lighter and I was starting to save seconds and save

minutes.

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And then those minutes turned into more minutes.

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So at the end of the night, I could say, yes, I could hang out with my husband.

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I could do the things I wanted to do.

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And again, going back to the connection piece, which I know you and I have, like, there's

so much common grounds.

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This is why I do what I do.

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Aesthetics are great.

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Yes, your home will look tidier, but it's about creating a home that's easy to manage so

that you can have better mental health, have improved, you know, like connect with your

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kid, all these different things.

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And that presence to me, which I couldn't access because clutter takes away from that, is

really a big foundation of connection to begin with.

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that was, so that was eight years ago, eight, nine years ago.

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from there,

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I was like, I have to scream this from the mountaintops.

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is amazing.

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mean, even I know that every single parent listening to this just connected to the part

where you talked about, you know, saying, no, I can't because I am once again, cleaning,

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reorganizing, filtering through and the strategy of, hey, here's the thing I'm going to do

to get rid of the stuff or whatever doesn't hit the underlying things that drive why we

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collect things and why we feel and

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So I want to just open up your book to a couple of spots.

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This is a beautiful quote.

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Mess is expected.

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Clutter is optional.

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And neither says anything about your worth, which I love that because I think we can get

into shame so quickly around these things.

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But you go on to kind of basically talk about the different types of clutter.

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And what you're really talking about are the different mental functions of that clutter,

right?

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Yes.

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You know, tell us a little bit about what you mean when you talk about scarcity clutter.

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What is scarcity clutter?

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ah So scarcity clutter, I would say, and I struggled with all these clutter types and I

found again, when we're kind of sold this idea, not in a malicious way, but like, this

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checklist will solve it.

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There's only one type of clutter.

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was like, well, why am I really great at decluttering one space in my house, but I

completely fail at another?

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And this is why I was like, I need language to this.

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and once I identified the language for it, I was like, okay, well, what tools can I add to

my declutter and simplifying tool belt?

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It's just like when we build a house, I grew up with my dad.

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He's a woodworker.

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And when he built our tree house, he didn't just use a hammer and nails.

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There's all these different tools.

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And I was like, let's do the same thing.

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So if you look at clutter like an onion, most of us tackle the outer layer first.

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So we all know onions, right?

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That outer shell just peels right off with very little effort.

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And this is where checklists can come in handy.

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uh But in our homes, and again, I've had my eyes in thousands of homes over the last

seven, eight years.

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I would say superficial clutter is only about 10 to 20 % of the cumulative clutter in our

houses.

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Now, it's important to say we should start with the easy low-hanging fruit because it's

easy low-hanging fruit.

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But most of us tackle that with a checklist and we feel better.

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We feel physiologically better.

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Maybe we gain some momentum and we're like, I feel good.

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And we kind of like wipe our hands.

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But again, when there's 80 % more in cabinets and still out and underneath that, this is

why it's like,

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that yo-yo constantly, one step forward, three steps back, it fills back up because

there's much more underneath.

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So the next layer that you spoke to is scarcity clutter.

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And this is the stuff where it's like, well, this costs money.

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Well, this is useful.

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This could come in handy.

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And it's really rooted in fear, fear of what if I need this?

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um I mean, and that can be clothing, that can be kitchen gadgets, the spiralizer you

bought in your wellness era.

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Mm-hmm.

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ah

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And those things can also guilt us in the same breath.

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And then deeper in, the next layer is sentimental.

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A lot of us are good at identifying what sentimental clutter is.

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This is nostalgia and memories usually it's tied to.

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And this would be, again, it's not good or bad.

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It's just identifying like, this is sentimental clutter.

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If you want to make progress in that area and go from a collector to a curator,

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So in the book, as you know, we dive into some really great strategies for sentimental.

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And then at the core, and I think this one was the most revolutionary for me to identify

and put words to, is identity clutter.

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It truly is the sneakiest.

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And it's the stuff tied to who you used to be, who you want to be, who you were.

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And some of that can be aspirational clutter.

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So it's like the yoga mat you bought last Christmas for yourself.

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And you're like, I'm going to do yoga five days a week.

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But it just sits there.

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And it's those things or like the, remember buying shoes to run a marathon or the books to

like improve my parenting and they would just sit on my nightstand and constantly remind

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me and I wouldn't read them.

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And they would just constantly reminding me you're falling flat or, um you know, speaking

to something from the past, like old clothing from your corporate career or something that

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can be exceptionally hard to let go of.

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And I think it's because letting go

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is almost like admitting to yourself, you've changed or you're not going to be that

person.

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And the reason this matters is if you're trying to apply a superficial strategy to a

sentimental problem or identity clutter, it's going to fall flat every time.

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It's kind of like putting a bandaid on a broken bone.

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You need the right tool for the right type.

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And again, just understanding that also gave me permission to not feel so bad about, quote

unquote, feeling like I was failing with the methods that are out there because I was

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like, well, no wonder they're not working.

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What we're addressing here is what's going on in between our ears.

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Like, we have to stop focusing on just like stuff is stuff.

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We have to like look within.

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Like, it's about us.

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Well, gosh, I'm just so in love with this.

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On like the face front of like, oh wait, so why does, how does this relate to attachment?

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I think people might be like, I don't know, but I can think of so many clients that I've

worked with who grew up in homes where there was chaos in the environment, in the physical

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environment and how that related to the chaos that their caregivers felt.

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And that for me is absolutely like, I joked with you about not consenting before I read

this, but I was like, I have some work to do.

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And I'm so thankful for the way you wrote it because it was so clear that there are things

here that are emotional in nature and therefore are going to affect my children in their

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attachment with me.

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And I think the way it primarily affects me and my kids is what you talked about of just

being like kind of overwhelmed.

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Like I've got so much to do.

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when I really sit down with what are the things I'm doing, like a lot of it is just

managing things in my home.

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physical things, the picking up and the clutter and the finding and the where's this and

the where's that.

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And obviously some of that remains as a parent, no matter how well you do this.

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But in you talk, you use the reference of the good enough home, which is connected to the

attachment research.

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That term was coined by D.W.

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Winnicott, the good enough mother.

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But I love this idea of the good enough home and just pausing to think about our

relationship to our stress, to labor.

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things and how the process of beginning to simplify some of that, you know, being to

reflect on what is my relationship to this stuff?

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Is it sentimental?

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Is it scarcity?

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Is it identity?

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And being curious about that so that we can then begin to hone down the amount of things

that we are processing in the physical environment.

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You also talk about, let me find my little bookmark here.

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This is an important one.

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Breaking the shopping and clutter cycle.

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And then my thought was another barrier, I think, around attachment and us being regulated

is how we feel financially.

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And so I think we get into this cycle where we're spending money and then we're bringing

more things into our home, which means there's more labor and there's more mental

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overhead.

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And then we're also adding the mental overhead of being financially stressed.

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So, okay, what do we do?

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How do we do it?

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How do we stop that?

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Well, I think I'll go back to stuff story.

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So that was in chapter two.

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I'm sure you read that one as well.

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Um, but I think again, for me, I was like, once I started cracking like the code on

decluttering, I felt like I was kind of decluttering with my right hand and shopping with

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my left.

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And I really didn't want to address that.

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was part of the

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I wanted to blame it on my kids and my husband because who wouldn't like they're the

problem not me I don't have any clutter don't look behind that door this you know, oh,

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it's my kids and my husband ah and so kind of going to the accumulation piece which is

such a big piece to the puzzle I I kind of wrote it into three pillars like what's driving

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us to accumulate and also struggle to let go in chapter 2 the stuff story it's really the

invisible thread that becomes our relationship with stuff and here's what

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changed the game for me.

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We don't just buy things, Eli.

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We buy stories.

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We buy emotions.

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This makes me cry.

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We buy beliefs about ourselves.

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that could be like, for me, when I was so overwhelmed in motherhood and tapped out and

just like 5 PM hit, I was like, need to scroll.

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And I'd see an ad.

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again, ads are designed to make us feel a certain way so that we are like, oh, I can buy

my way to solution.

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And I think, again, it's getting to the root of it.

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And so I very quickly realized, a lot of us know we shop from boredom and stress.

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And again, the point isn't to like never impulse buy again, never buy again.

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The pendulum doesn't have to swing so far the other way that you can only have one pair of

shoes and like whatever, all white furniture.

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That's not the point.

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But we also tend to, I'm like, yeah, I can't do that either.

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My kids, and I have cats.

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I remember thinking,

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Well, what if you don't want all white furniture?

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Like, do these people not have pets?

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like, I don't want to live in a museum, which good enough home is like great for.

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It's finding that own harmony for yourself.

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But back to answering your question, stress and boredom are a really big driver for

shopping.

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But also, so is the need to control.

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It's buying things gives us this false sense of security and control.

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And you and I talked about this when you were on my show recently.

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The world feels very out of control right now.

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And when I felt out of control, whether it was in my own bubble, in my own home, or like I

saw the news, again, I was like, okay, like I'm feeling anxious, I wanna shop.

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And so it's just getting to the root of that accumulation piece and feeling like, okay,

pause.

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We talk about like how to pause in the book.

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Take a breath, right?

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And go, what am I really feeling here?

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And if it's like, I'm feeling the need to feel like,

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validated or I just have to go up and use the restroom and regulate my nervous system

through drinking water.

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You know, it's like really trying to find your nuance.

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What's driving you and go?

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How can I achieve that feeling?

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Maybe it's the desire to feel beautiful.

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Listen, I had a client.

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Her thing was like lipstick and she would be like that was she wanted to feel beautiful,

but no lipstick she ever bought was good enough.

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She'd be like, I like it, but there's another shade.

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She like

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I mean, like over 50 shades and she was still accumulating.

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Right.

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And so again, like if you notice these patterns in yourself, well, what was it for her?

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She's like, I feel the desire to be really beautiful.

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And again, I think a lot of us do.

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um I think, you know, that's a whole other conversation because we also have to decide

when is enough enough?

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When when when is enough enough when it comes to things we we do love and use and, um you

know, just there's some inner work and working on that.

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She was like, I don't

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She was just able to simplify that.

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And again, yes, it's less stuff.

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And she was able to let go and donate those to girlfriends she knew.

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But it was like this mental liberation of this constant need and noise, this input, like I

need to buy something to feel a certain way.

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And that contentment is what's waiting on the other side.

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And there's so much less mental clutter when we feel good enough in our skin, when we feel

like, OK, I'm feeling out of control right now.

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I just read a horrible headline.

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Here's what I can do.

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I can take a two minute walk, I can pause, I can take a two minute walk and I can regulate

my nervous system before, right, we all know prefrontal cortex gets hijacked and mine was

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like, buy something, buy something.

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And I just think it's an important piece to the puzzle because yeah, mean, it's like

what's driving your accumulation?

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And that looks a little different for everyone but I say there are a lot of similar

overlaps, especially with women and cultural pressures and cultural expectations.

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And it's really interesting to me and I think it would be silly to not address that.

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Well, and I think it creates some really powerful questions with our kids.

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know, I mean, when I'm with my kids in like a grocery store or somewhere and they see

something, right?

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Like, I want that.

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I'm like, I can see why you want that.

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And I want you to remember, you know, that you have a stuffed penguin, right?

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but that's penguin doesn't have a pink bow.

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Okay.

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I can hear that.

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And I wonder if we can be creative with the stuffed penguin we have.

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And what will we do with that?

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And how can we think through this?

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And this isn't a black and white thing, like you were saying.

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I think there are times, I can think of times in my own life where I'm like, I am a mental

disaster.

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We're trying to get A to B and there's something there.

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My kids screaming and I'm like, yes, fine, buy it.

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Just put it in the cart.

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It's gonna serve a purpose.

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The purpose it's serving is it's calming you down so I can function so we can X, or Z.

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But creating a practice with our kids overall that I would kind of say you're leading us

into, which is just.

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a mindfulness and a relationship, an attuned relationship to the things we buy and the

things we keep and the way that we use those in the world.

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You know, I'm thinking someone I love very dearly.

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I'm not going to say who because I think she feels a little embarrassed by this, but um

had this tendency to fill her home with a ton of things because her scarcity was about

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other people.

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What if someone I know needs this?

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Yes.

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: 00:18:55

And especially her kids actually.

280

: 00:18:57

And so there's like a sense of, and the process for her of clearing out, had to move.

281

: 00:19:02

So her was really about, what if someone I love needs this?

282

: 00:19:07

And so that curiosity and attunement of, well, let's talk about the people you love.

283

: 00:19:12

How many of them are destitute and unable to get the things they need?

284

: 00:19:15

Oh, actually very few of them.

285

: 00:19:17

wait, none of them in her world.

286

: 00:19:20

And if they were, are these the actual things they need?

287

: 00:19:23

Do they need this vintage waffle maker?

288

: 00:19:28

Probably not, right?

289

: 00:19:30

So, and I think the does it spark joy, know, the Marie Kondo idea of like, I love that,

and I know you referenced that in your book too.

290

: 00:19:37

It's a great question.

291

: 00:19:40

And sometimes I think we overestimate the amount of joy that things will have in terms of

how long it lasts.

292

: 00:19:48

So I'm really big on teaching my kids.

293

: 00:19:50

Things might bring a joy for a moment, but that joy you're talking about is dopamine.

294

: 00:19:55

Real joy.

295

: 00:19:56

Real joy lasts a lot longer and you don't have to keep getting more of it.

296

: 00:20:00

And so what would bring real joy?

297

: 00:20:02

And so if it's, you know, we're going to give someone something.

298

: 00:20:07

My daughter was talking to me about this.

299

: 00:20:08

We were in Costa Rica and we saw this mom and her two kids on the side of the road selling

something.

300

: 00:20:14

And it was obvious that there was, you know, uh impoverishment in their life.

301

: 00:20:19

And

302

: 00:20:20

I saw that and I took my girls and I was like, we're going to go.

303

: 00:20:23

I was like, if I was a mom on the side of the road, here's what I would want for my kids.

304

: 00:20:26

I would want a lot of fruit.

305

: 00:20:28

I would want like fresh nutritious food.

306

: 00:20:30

And I would want to take for there to be water that they could drink.

307

: 00:20:33

And so we went and we bought some of those things.

308

: 00:20:35

We brought it to them.

309

: 00:20:36

And I completely forgot about doing that.

310

: 00:20:38

And then recently one of my daughters brought it up and she was like, remember the

oranges?

311

: 00:20:43

And I was like, no.

312

: 00:20:44

She kept going through the thing and the final like, oh, and she's like, that made my

heart feel good.

313

: 00:20:50

Like that's lasting joy.

314

: 00:20:52

And so I think, you know, we have to model this for our kids.

315

: 00:20:58

your tears are so sweet.

316

: 00:21:00

Go!

317

: 00:21:04

Tell me about those tears.

318

: 00:21:08

I think, you know, at the heart of this, a lot of us recognize that clutter is stressful,

clutter is annoying, but it also feels like this passive thing in a way.

319

: 00:21:22

And the more I work with clients and just continue to do the work, because it's an ongoing

thing, I think a lot of us need to shift our expectations.

320

: 00:21:33

Like, it's not about the marathon weekends.

321

: 00:21:37

I just...

322

: 00:21:38

The amount, what it's given me on the other side, those tears, uh the experiences with my

kids, whether it's like on a day-to-day basis or how we're spending our time celebrating

323

: 00:21:51

my son's upcoming birthday, he's turning 11.

324

: 00:21:54

And I didn't tell him, you know, it's just his ongoing conversations with our kids.

325

: 00:22:00

And he's like, I don't want anything.

326

: 00:22:02

I just want to have a home cooked meal.

327

: 00:22:05

And he's my little family guy.

328

: 00:22:08

And he goes, and I would like to just have an ex, you know, that will be an experience.

329

: 00:22:14

And I think that's really lovely that he's like, that's what life's about.

330

: 00:22:18

You know, and I'm thinking like, wow, it's so revolutionary that speaking to the modeling

you're talking about, we do have to model this.

331

: 00:22:28

Listen, when we're at Target, my kids, they would add everything to cart probably,

especially if they were dysregulated, right?

332

: 00:22:36

And

333

: 00:22:37

There are so many times in the car or when they see me on Amazon, I'm like, money doesn't

grow on trees, honey.

334

: 00:22:43

Like, you know, this is...

335

: 00:22:46

And tapping into that resourcefulness and creativity, like maybe we can tie, you know what

would be cool for the penguin at home?

336

: 00:22:52

Maybe we have ribbon in the art bin and we could tie different ribbons around it.

337

: 00:22:57

So if you wanna wake up on a Tuesday and do a blue ribbon, you can do a blue ribbon.

338

: 00:23:01

Let's paint it pink.

339

: 00:23:02

Let's paint it yellow.

340

: 00:23:04

Let's do, yes, yes.

341

: 00:23:05

are so many other ways and just constantly buying.

342

: 00:23:08

And again, buying isn't bad, but when stuff becomes overwhelming, mean, studies show, and

this is what it's all about, women who describe their homes as either cluttered or messy

343

: 00:23:19

have elevated levels of cortisol.

344

: 00:23:21

And it's not just when we're looking at the clutter, our stress response isn't coming

down.

345

: 00:23:26

So our brain is treating clutter like this low grade, you know, black bear.

346

: 00:23:31

I black bears here in Nashville.

347

: 00:23:33

And that takes a toll on our nervous system.

348

: 00:23:36

And it's not a character flaw that we snap at our kids or have less patience or feel

anxious or depressed or upset in our home.

349

: 00:23:45

This is just a normal human physiological response.

350

: 00:23:49

And even though your partner might have a lot of clutter or your kids, and yes, it's an

ongoing thing, taking action and tackling these things, the return on investment is

351

: 00:23:59

absolutely massive when it comes to all of those things.

352

: 00:24:02

Yes.

353

: 00:24:03

I tear up because this is what we have access to, this opportunity to connect, have more

time, declutter our mental load.

354

: 00:24:13

I used to feel so anxious and depressed inside my home.

355

: 00:24:18

And it was because of our physical environments or the invisible hand that shape our

behavior.

356

: 00:24:23

Our brains, Eli, are wired to crave peace and order.

357

: 00:24:29

Clutter is the opposite of that.

358

: 00:24:30

And just like you spoke to in the book, clutter is optional.

359

: 00:24:34

Expected mess is a part of life.

360

: 00:24:36

And I think, again, that's why I started there in the book, because it gives us grace, it

gives us permission, and it gives us the ability to declutter the guilt and shame a lot of

361

: 00:24:46

us experience, especially as mothers and parents.

362

: 00:24:49

And that feeling of me walking in my home at the end of my day, constantly feeling short,

what's wrong with me?

363

: 00:24:55

Why can't I figure this out?

364

: 00:24:56

I can run a business, but I can't manage my home.

365

: 00:24:59

You're a loser, Katie.

366

: 00:25:00

Like again, my own worst enemy was living in between my ears.

367

: 00:25:04

But to be able to look at mess that lands on my counters, even though it's annoying, even

though I just cleaned them off and go, Katie, this isn't a moral failure.

368

: 00:25:13

This is normal life.

369

: 00:25:14

The water bottles landed there.

370

: 00:25:15

If you don't want them to land there, model, have ongoing conversations, design the

environment to support what you want your kids to do, work on your habits, all these

371

: 00:25:23

things and your families too.

372

: 00:25:25

But to not have that really

373

: 00:25:28

gave me the freedom to then go, okay, what's the problem?

374

: 00:25:31

What's the problem here?

375

: 00:25:32

Yes, expected master solutions for that other than what we talked about, but it's like, my

attention then went to the clutter.

376

: 00:25:40

It's truly one of the biggest enemies in our home.

377

: 00:25:45

The idea of recognizing how, I mean, ultimately this is about consumerism, capitalism, you

know, that there's a whole chapter in my new book called How to Deal with the Distraction

378

: 00:25:56

Habit.

379

: 00:25:57

And um I'm talking about how, you know, our attention is a part of our attunement.

380

: 00:26:02

And so if we have very little attention to give, it's very hard to give our children the

experience of feeling secure and regulated with us, because we're not in the room, right?

381

: 00:26:12

We are.

382

: 00:26:13

us and the stuff.

383

: 00:26:15

you're giving us this incredible gift.

384

: 00:26:17

What are a couple more things?

385

: 00:26:18

Like let's say a mom in particular, because that's usually who's listening, is listening

here.

386

: 00:26:23

And she's like, Oy vey, this is a situation I do need to figure out.

387

: 00:26:30

am, my house is overwhelming.

388

: 00:26:32

I do have this shopping thing that I do.

389

: 00:26:36

you know, obviously she needs to go get your book.

390

: 00:26:38

But what

391

: 00:26:40

What encouragement would you give to someone who's kind of just waking up to this

awareness that clutter is getting in between them and their ability to be the secure

392

: 00:26:49

parent their kid needs?

393

: 00:26:51

I think number one, just understanding you don't need endless hours and you don't need to

eat up your weekends.

394

: 00:26:58

If that doesn't align with your schedule, I used to truly believe anyone who had a

simplified home had endless hours.

395

: 00:27:05

And I'd be like, must be nice for her.

396

: 00:27:06

um And maybe she did, maybe she didn't.

397

: 00:27:09

But I kind of used that as a reason for myself to not make progress and also not challenge

those beliefs.

398

: 00:27:16

You know, one of the biggest things, again, going back to environment is the invisible

hand that shapes human behavior.

399

: 00:27:21

Make it easy to do what you want to do.

400

: 00:27:23

Decluttering is an ongoing thing.

401

: 00:27:26

And there are really simplified ways we can incorporate decluttering in seconds, Eli, into

our normal everyday routine while we're at home anyway.

402

: 00:27:35

So the first step I start with my clients is if you want to make it easy for yourself to

declutter, add a permanent donation station.

403

: 00:27:42

can be a bin, it can be a trash bag.

404

: 00:27:44

It doesn't have to be pretty, shop your house first, put it somewhere accessible and

visible.

405

: 00:27:48

Why?

406

: 00:27:48

Because it's going to help influence you to not only declutter and be that gentle

reminder, but also a big study shows that procrastination is one of the biggest reasons

407

: 00:28:02

for clutter accumulation.

408

: 00:28:03

So the more you procrastinate, the more clutter you tend to accumulate.

409

: 00:28:06

And that builds, and guess what?

410

: 00:28:07

Procrastination only gets deeper, right?

411

: 00:28:09

Because then it gets so overwhelming.

412

: 00:28:11

So just having a bin acts as a home for that clutter.

413

: 00:28:15

We've all kind of heard the old adage, like, everything in your home should have, every

item in your home should have a home, right?

414

: 00:28:20

And I'm like, well, why don't we also apply that to clutter?

415

: 00:28:22

Because what do we do when we spot clutter and don't have a home for it?

416

: 00:28:26

Let's just say you pull some pants out of the dryer and you're like, these are two inches

too short for my kid.

417

: 00:28:32

And I used to go, I don't have time.

418

: 00:28:34

And I put them back into his dresser, right?

419

: 00:28:36

Making it harder for me to get what I need, what actually fits him.

420

: 00:28:40

Or I'd plop them in a pile and go, don't have time for this, right?

421

: 00:28:43

Cause we're so busy.

422

: 00:28:44

And now I just add it to my donation bin.

423

: 00:28:46

have one in my laundry room because kids, I have one in each of my kids closet, but I

started with just one and it made such a difference.

424

: 00:28:55

And then, you know, to piggyback on that, taking those small actions, our brains also love

to trick us and go, what's the point of a small action?

425

: 00:29:02

Cause everything in our culture is like, take a pill, do this, do that.

426

: 00:29:06

And like the magic will come the next day or right away.

427

: 00:29:09

But.

428

: 00:29:09

These small actions compound over time and give you so much back.

429

: 00:29:14

It all accumulates.

430

: 00:29:15

So I call these clutter audits.

431

: 00:29:17

So these are what you can incorporate into your everyday routine.

432

: 00:29:20

So think about the hundreds of opportunities you can tackle that clutter in seconds.

433

: 00:29:24

So maybe you're putting the dishes away and you're putting all your coffee mugs, right?

434

: 00:29:28

Naturally in the front of the ones that are shoved in the back.

435

: 00:29:30

Maybe you go, you know what, that one, I don't need it.

436

: 00:29:32

That one has a chip in it.

437

: 00:29:33

That one.

438

: 00:29:34

I don't need and a golden rule, my go-to question, I use this daily.

439

: 00:29:37

Like, have I had the opportunity to use this in the last six months?

440

: 00:29:41

That is my anchor.

441

: 00:29:42

If we don't have, and this is why I feel so compelled to have all these different anchors

and strategies in each of the chapters, because if we have nothing to anchor our mind to,

442

: 00:29:50

to help us kind of pre-decide, every time our brain's gonna go, you're right.

443

: 00:29:56

I might need that.

444

: 00:29:57

This costs money, all these things.

445

: 00:30:00

We can always justify.

446

: 00:30:03

Yes.

447

: 00:30:03

I do want to make my waffles, right?

448

: 00:30:06

And then this time I want them in this shape and not that shape versus well, wait a

minute.

449

: 00:30:11

Have you made waffles in the last six months?

450

: 00:30:13

Apparently you're not a waffle family.

451

: 00:30:15

Like it's okay and let it let it go.

452

: 00:30:18

And if someone someday really gets into waffles and you need a waffle maker, there will be

one at the local thrift store.

453

: 00:30:27

that someone else wasn't using.

454

: 00:30:28

And you can kind of get into that waffle zone of your life.

455

: 00:30:33

You know, I love when you could talk about your your wellness stage.

456

: 00:30:35

You can go into that waffle stage, but you're not in it right now.

457

: 00:30:38

And it's okay that you're not in it and to let it go.

458

: 00:30:40

Yeah, and you can modify.

459

: 00:30:43

Maybe you are in your wellness era, but like, you know, maybe you need a different waffle

mix, grain free, I don't know.

460

: 00:30:49

And then it's like, I can use that.

461

: 00:30:51

Sometimes it just takes a little creativity, resourcefulness.

462

: 00:30:54

Well, maybe I keep it.

463

: 00:30:55

um But using that golden rule and just, again, maybe you're putting the kids' school

supplies away if you're a homeschool mom or like even not.

464

: 00:31:03

I help my kids with homework.

465

: 00:31:04

We have a little dedicated area for pencils and erasers, all the essentials.

466

: 00:31:08

If it's starting to accumulate and you go, have we had the opportunity to use this in the

last six months but haven't, boom.

467

: 00:31:13

And because your donation bin is nearby, it's visible and accessible, those things are so

important, you have a place to put it, right?

468

: 00:31:21

And again, seconds a day, I had a client who was, again, so overwhelmed.

469

: 00:31:25

I recognize I need to make a change.

470

: 00:31:27

What do I do?

471

: 00:31:27

We started with these two things.

472

: 00:31:29

She happened to tally everything.

473

: 00:31:32

Like, you know, at the end of each day, here's how many things I got rid of.

474

: 00:31:35

It was over 200 things in 30 days.

475

: 00:31:37

And she goes, I wasn't overwhelmed.

476

: 00:31:39

I didn't break a sweat.

477

: 00:31:41

And it was way easier than I thought it was.

478

: 00:31:43

Yes, I have more to go, but I'm so on fire.

479

: 00:31:47

And she didn't wait for momentum or motivation.

480

: 00:31:50

Action comes first.

481

: 00:31:52

That creates motivation.

482

: 00:31:53

Because so many of us go, I just wish I were more motivated.

483

: 00:31:55

Or people say, Katie, well, you must be so motivated.

484

: 00:31:57

No, action creates that.

485

: 00:32:00

Action always comes first.

486

: 00:32:03

Clutter audits and setting up your donation bin are a great initial first action.

487

: 00:32:07

And sharing with your family, hey, if you're cleaning up your room this weekend and notice

any stuffies you don't need or sweatshirts that don't fit, put them in this donation bin

488

: 00:32:16

and they'll go, okay, great.

489

: 00:32:19

I love it.

490

: 00:32:19

mean, what I was going to say is you made decluttering a practice instead of an event.

491

: 00:32:25

And I think that's the key is like, whatever we do on repeat, that is what becomes

sustainable.

492

: 00:32:32

And so the, the kind of like, okay, I'm going to have a decluttering weekend experience.

493

: 00:32:37

Well, that doesn't dig into the consciousness around what we're gathering or what we're

letting go of.

494

: 00:32:43

And I just want you to know.

495

: 00:32:45

I already do the bin thing.

496

: 00:32:46

I didn't even know that was going to be the first thing you said, but I was like, I have a

bag actually.

497

: 00:32:51

I a bag in the front and then I have a bin in my son's closet that I use for that.

498

: 00:32:56

And I think this is so good.

499

: 00:32:58

I love it.

500

: 00:32:59

Okay.

501

: 00:32:59

What was the other thing you wanted to tell us to do?

502

: 00:33:01

Are there two things or was that the two?

503

: 00:33:04

yeah.

504

: 00:33:04

So then there's also the piece, because I don't want to like downplay expected mess.

505

: 00:33:08

So expected mess is a normal mess that happens from living everyday life.

506

: 00:33:11

This is like sometimes, guess what?

507

: 00:33:13

Our kids don't put stuff back where they belong.

508

: 00:33:15

There's dirty dishes on the counter.

509

: 00:33:17

And here, you know, we're doing a puzzle.

510

: 00:33:20

There's a puzzle on the floor.

511

: 00:33:21

My brain used to scream, clatter, threat, right, overwhelm.

512

: 00:33:27

And again, I think when we can just go, hold on brain, I know you're doing your,

513

: 00:33:32

your job, is to make sure that we survive.

514

: 00:33:36

And you might feel a little threatened right now by these things, but these are expected

mass.

515

: 00:33:40

So I think too, it's just reaffirming and rewiring that we don't have to react so urgently

or in that way when we see this expected mass.

516

: 00:33:49

But it's like, what's the strategy to minimize expected mass so that it doesn't get

overwhelming?

517

: 00:33:54

So this is where I started incorporating what I call resets.

518

: 00:33:57

And this is where we pick

519

: 00:33:58

in expected mess hot spots.

520

: 00:34:00

So in a lot of homes, that's like kitchen table, kitchen island, kitchen, any surface area

in a spot in an area that most, you know, it's a gathering spot, right?

521

: 00:34:09

It's just reality entryways, stuff like that, coffee tables.

522

: 00:34:12

And you spend a few minutes, sometimes it's just a few seconds, the less clutter you have

to work around, the easier it is to do a reset.

523

: 00:34:19

And you reset that space back to its baseline tidiness once a day.

524

: 00:34:22

And this is where like,

525

: 00:34:23

We feel it, like anyone who's ever cleared off a surface, like a countertop, you feel like

you can breathe.

526

: 00:34:29

hear, like you just breathe.

527

: 00:34:31

Our bodies, even when we think about it, this is why, like geek out over this stuff, it's

so cool.

528

: 00:34:36

We don't even, it's, and when we see it before it, yes, it is.

529

: 00:34:41

my son and I, cook a lot and we're and we use the pantry a lot.

530

: 00:34:45

And he said to me, he called attention to it.

531

: 00:34:48

He was like, we need we need to do a clear out.

532

: 00:34:50

And so last weekend, the two of us went through and we gave away like three boxes of

things that we didn't need.

533

: 00:34:56

We donated some food that we weren't eating.

534

: 00:34:58

We got rid of some stuff or whatever.

535

: 00:35:00

And this whole week, me, my husband and my son, my my daughters are young enough that they

don't

536

: 00:35:06

recognize that impact.

537

: 00:35:07

Then we all we open up the pantry and we all have all been going, my God, I feel so good.

538

: 00:35:12

It feels so good to have cleared it, organized it and simplified it so that when we walk

in that room, our brain isn't working as hard.

539

: 00:35:25

And I think that's the part of the parenting piece of this that I hope every parent will

take away from this conversation is one of the barriers you're experiencing in

540

: 00:35:34

being regulated is the environment.

541

: 00:35:37

And so when you said, you know, the environment is the invisible force that drives

behavior.

542

: 00:35:45

Well, the physical environment is an invisible force that drives the relational

environment that drives a child's behavior.

543

: 00:35:54

So if we want our children to experience resilience, confidence, empathy, groundedness, we

know they need a secure attachment experience with us.

544

: 00:36:02

Well, that's harder for us to do when we are flooded with things in our world that need

our attention.

545

: 00:36:10

And so you have given us just this masterpiece of a book.

546

: 00:36:14

I am so excited for everyone to read this book.

547

: 00:36:17

I am a booked market all up in the wazoo and I'm going to m ask my husband to read it too

and he will.

548

: 00:36:23

So I'm excited to just kind of hold some of these deeper values and use your, you know,

incredible language of being like, what's my relationship to this?

549

: 00:36:31

Is it sentimental?

550

: 00:36:32

Is it scarcity?

551

: 00:36:34

Is it identity?

552

: 00:36:34

And what can we do with it?

553

: 00:36:35

And then also just being really thoughtful about what we accumulate so that we don't end

up in like a pile of overwhelm all the time.

554

: 00:36:46

yeah.

555

: 00:36:46

I think it's all those things we talked about and more that just, it's like holistic

decluttering.

556

: 00:36:51

That's my philosophy from a 30,000 foot view.

557

: 00:36:54

And I think, again, there's so much freedom.

558

: 00:36:57

There's so much freedom in that.

559

: 00:36:58

And I just wanna encourage your listeners.

560

: 00:37:00

And again, I'm just a tearful person.

561

: 00:37:02

I cry of happiness and joy all the time, but also it's just, really, I've experienced

that.

562

: 00:37:06

I've been overwhelmed.

563

: 00:37:08

And I think a lot of us think I'll be happy when, and sometimes we apply that towards

accumulation.

564

: 00:37:14

I'll be happy when I get the house, the car, the job, whatever.

565

: 00:37:17

And we all know how that story ends, but I'll be happy when my house is completely

decluttered and it looks like this after photo that I kind of have in my head.

566

: 00:37:26

And I just want to encourage everyone that you can start leaning into those little

glimmers and those little, again, those seconds that you're gaining.

567

: 00:37:35

You're getting your time and energy back.

568

: 00:37:37

And I think we're so tempted to fill that back up with tasks, to-dos.

569

: 00:37:42

have to feel productive.

570

: 00:37:43

or more stuff and you can start feeling better, literally like go spend five minutes,

tackle a counter, even if it is just resetting the space and doing a reset, it's still

571

: 00:37:53

valuable for our nervous systems and our home.

572

: 00:37:56

And then maybe you tackle some clutter too at that donation station and we can begin

feeling happier in our homes, you know, as soon as today.

573

: 00:38:03

the things, finding the things like I'm thinking right now on my kitchen table, we have

this little centerpiece thing and um it is currently filled with what someone else might

574

: 00:38:13

think is clutter, which there are about probably like seven card games in there.

575

: 00:38:19

And it is not clutter because the minute that I sit down at that table with my kids, we

are going to play sky Joe.

576

: 00:38:25

We are going to play mantis.

577

: 00:38:26

We are going to play, you know, BS.

578

: 00:38:28

We are going to sit down and we are going to have communal experience and those games.

579

: 00:38:32

are the best centerpiece I've ever had on my table.

580

: 00:38:35

And it does not look like a magazine, it is, is, you know, use the word curated.

581

: 00:38:41

It is curated stuff.

582

: 00:38:43

Whereas I'm thinking, of course, everyone who's here is thinking about all the different

spaces in your home.

583

: 00:38:48

I'm thinking of like our art area.

584

: 00:38:50

I'm like, we have way too many random coloring books that nobody uses that we need to just

oust, you know, because they, actually make it hard to shut the drawer and that in and of

585

: 00:38:59

itself is a thing versus

586

: 00:39:01

the stuff on the table.

587

: 00:39:02

I think being thoughtful about what are the things that actually create the experiences

that we long for and our kids long for so that there are memories.

588

: 00:39:11

I mean, I I know my kids are gonna grow up and be like, oh my gosh, do you remember how

many times we made you play Sky Joe?

589

: 00:39:19

You know, and it'll be like, yeah, Rune, remember the one time when you cleared every

single column and we should be like, my gosh, I remember, right?

590

: 00:39:26

Like that's worth the presence of those.

591

: 00:39:30

things on my table.

592

: 00:39:32

So I just adore you and you have given us so many places to get more free and to have

permission to really focus on what matters.

593

: 00:39:41

And thank you so much for being here.

594

: 00:39:44

Where can people find your book?

595

: 00:39:46

It's called Making Home Your Happy Place, A Real Life Guide to Decluttering Without the

Overwhelm.

596

: 00:39:51

Katie Joy Wells.

597

: 00:39:53

I assume it's everywhere you buy books.

598

: 00:39:55

Yes, anywhere you buy books.

599

: 00:39:58

if you, well, you're a podcast listener if you listen to Eli.

600

: 00:40:00

By the way, I reached out to Eli.

601

: 00:40:02

I've been following her for years.

602

: 00:40:03

She knows this.

603

: 00:40:04

But when she's like, I have a podcast, I was like, what?

604

: 00:40:08

Like a fangirling, like so excited.

605

: 00:40:10

So you can come check out the Maximized Minimalist.

606

: 00:40:13

I have, I mean, over 350 episodes, including Eli, who so graciously came on my show.

607

: 00:40:20

And yeah, I hope.

608

: 00:40:22

You really love today's episode.

609

: 00:40:23

And for those who buy the book, just think, you know, I wrote it to be a companion in this

journey and it is a journey and the feedback so far, it's as, you know, as we record this

610

: 00:40:32

week, one of my book launch has been just so beautiful.

611

: 00:40:35

Um, and it's, all about being able to use these strategies, get curious, meet ourselves

with curiosity and not judgment and all the things I think a lot of us work really hard on

612

: 00:40:46

to provide our kids.

613

: 00:40:47

It's kind of, you know, and our same breath.

614

: 00:40:49

Yes, this is impacting our family too, but.

615

: 00:40:51

I think it's really beautiful to also understand that this will impact our relationship

with ourselves.

616

: 00:40:57

You know, and it's just like you, I went into this thinking it was about the bins and

labels, but I think when you do the deeper work, it's so beautiful and you continue to

617

: 00:41:06

reap the benefits months, years down the road.

618

: 00:41:10

I love it.

619

: 00:41:11

Thank you for being you.

620

: 00:41:13

Thank you for all of the work you've done and the wisdom you're giving us.

621

: 00:41:16

Thank you.