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Episode 3

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Published on:

29th Jan 2026

How to Deal With Bias as Parents | Destini Ann Davis

We all have biases. Every single one of us.

They're the mental shortcuts our brains built when we were young—and most of us never thought to question them. But what happens when your child starts forming their own identity, and it challenges everything you thought you believed?

In this episode, Eli sits down with Destini Ann Davis—bestselling author of Very Intentional Parenting, certified parenting coach, and creator to unpack how our unexamined biases can quietly erode secure attachment with our kids.

They dive into:

  1. Why ALL humans have biases (and why that's not the same as being "bad")
  2. The difference between recognizing bias and acting on it
  3. How proximity and diverse exposure actually rewires our brains
  4. Why "distance breeds suspicion, but proximity breeds empathy" (Tyler Merritt)
  5. Teaching kids to pause and get curious instead of react with judgment
  6. How authenticity about our own biases creates deeper connections

Whether it's biases about race, gender, neurodivergence, body size, or a hundred other things—this conversation will help you examine what you're unconsciously passing on.

📝 TAKE THE TEST: Harvard University's Implicit Association Test (IAT) — https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/takeatest.html

ABOUT THE GUEST:

Destini Ann Davis is a certified parenting coach, bestselling author, and speaker who helps parents create intentional, connected relationships with their children through her "Very Intentional Parenting" approach. Her TikTok has grown to over 900K followers, and she recently earned her master's in psychology.

  1. Website: https://www.destiniann.com/
  2. Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/destini.ann/
  3. LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/destini-davis-a44700266/
  4. Book: Very Intentional Parenting by Destini Ann Davis

RESOURCES MENTIONED:

  1. Harvard Implicit Association Test (IAT): https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/takeatest.html
  2. I Take My Coffee Black by Tyler Merritt: https://www.amazon.com/Take-My-Coffee-Black-Reflections/dp/1546029419
  3. Very Intentional Parenting by Destini Ann Davis

📚 PRE-ORDER ELI'S NEW BOOK: "How to Deal With Your ____, So Your Kids Don't Have To: An Encyclopedia for Ditching Your Emotional Baggage" (April 2026) 👉 https://www.attachmentnerd.com/how-to-deal-book

🎓 SECURE PARENTING PROGRAM: https://www.attachmentnerd.com/secure-parenting-program

CONNECT WITH ELI:

  1. Website: https://www.attachmentnerd.com/
  2. Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/attachmentnerd/
  3. TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@attachmentnerd

🎵 Music by Gold Child: https://www.goldchildmusic.com/

Transcript
:

Welcome to the How to Deal Podcast.

:

I'm your host, Eli Harwood, AKA, the attachment nerd, and I am so

:

glad that you're here with me.

Eli:

I think we can all agree that it is really important for us to deal with

Eli:

our stuff as parents so that our kids inherit less emotional baggage from us.

Eli:

And most of us kind of recognize, okay, that means I need to handle

Eli:

my traumas and I need to work through, my discomfort with emotions.

Eli:

But after all of my years of sitting with families and adults

Eli:

who've grown up in families.

Eli:

There's something that I think often gets missed and is really important when

Eli:

it comes to keeping a secure bond with our kids, especially as they get older,

Eli:

and that is dealing with our unexamined biases and becoming parents who recognize

Eli:

that we have biases and are willing to take active action to deal with them.

Eli:

And the reason for that is that.

Eli:

Our kids grow up and form their own belief systems.

Eli:

They bond with people that are different than maybe people that

Eli:

we've been exposed to or understand.

Eli:

And they have their own identities that they form that may have.

Eli:

Areas of discomfort for us, and if we raise our kids really securely growing

Eli:

up, but we are not comfortable or capable of understanding them or the

Eli:

people they love or care about, or the missions or passions that they're

Eli:

important to them as they're growing up.

Eli:

It can become a barrier and we can lose some of that secure closeness as they age.

Eli:

So today I've brought on one of my favorite friends and humans.

Eli:

Many of you know her as Destiny Ann.

Eli:

Her name is Destiny Ann Davis.

Eli:

And she is a powerhouse of wisdom.

Eli:

She is a influencer with bajillions of followers, and has recently gotten

Eli:

her master's in psychology and is here to just talk through with all of us.

Eli:

The nuances of how biases affect our children, what biases even are, and it

Eli:

was really important for both of us to come at this conversation from a place of

Eli:

curiosity and openness and not judgment.

Eli:

Definitely not hierarchy, not looking down on anybody, but

Eli:

just all of us talking together.

Eli:

Like how do we deal with our biases?

Eli:

One, to ensure that our kids can continue to feel close with us, even as they.

Eli:

Change, grow and evolve away from us or our ideas.

Eli:

And two, let's do our part in making the world a less threatening, less accusatory,

Eli:

less us versus them kind of place.

Eli:

So I'm really happy that you're here let's dive in.

Eli:

How can we deal with our biases?

Eli:

Hello my dear

Destini:

I'm glad we're here.

Destini:

Finally talking about something that I know is super important to you.

Destini:

Important to your audience is important to me, important to my audience.

Destini:

So thank you for trusting me to talk to you about this.

Eli:

I just am so thankful for your voice in the world and how you

Eli:

so clearly advocate for humanity.

Eli:

Like we have to figure out how to take care of each other and our biases

Eli:

are in a real bad place right now.

Eli:

I think we could say that pretty safely biases are running amuck

Eli:

in current daytime and nighttime.

Eli:

It feels good to look at the pieces that we can address in ourselves.

Eli:

'cause obviously, we can't go out there and convince other people to deal with

Eli:

their biases, but we can figure out how to be people that are dealing with ours.

Eli:

I don't know.

Eli:

I get a little hope just thinking like of that ripple effect of all

Eli:

of the parents, in this case, a lot of moms, a couple of dads, hi dads.

Eli:

We're always so glad you're here.

Eli:

But a lot of moms out there determined to create a world that's more accepting

Eli:

and more connected and less violent.

Eli:

And I think we do that by, you know, dealing with the way that those

Eli:

things can pop up in ourselves.

Destini:

I'm wanna give us permission to just be talking to those moms

Destini:

and those dads and that also care about this and want to do better.

Destini:

And the moms and dads that are, we talked about it before, that are concerned with

Destini:

good thoughts and emotions and feelings and how they translate in the world.

Destini:

And hopefully this conversation is us just adding our biases to

Destini:

that list of things that we are more aware of so that we can make.

Destini:

More intentional conscious decisions as parents and people.

Eli:

Yeah.

Eli:

Yeah.

Eli:

For anyone who's ready.

Eli:

You know, I think it took me time to understand that we all have biases.

Eli:

I didn't wanna have biases.

Eli:

I'm a tender heart.

Eli:

I don't wanna have biases.

Eli:

I wanna love everybody.

Eli:

And I think there's a bit of a grief process to realizing

Eli:

like, oh no, I have them.

Eli:

We all have them.

Eli:

And it's just a part of being a human.

Eli:

And that I don't help the world become a safer place for other

Eli:

people, or myself and my kids by pretending I don't have biases.

Eli:

I, I do that by being like, oh, I, yeah, there's some stuff here that

Eli:

I've been taught or that I haven't been taught, and I can look at it and

Eli:

unpack it and help my kids do the same thing by not making it a shame thing.

Eli:

I think that's such an important part of this conversation, is like, this

Eli:

isn't about, the enlightened people versus the unenlightened people.

Eli:

This is Hey, we're all in this muckety muck mess

Eli:

and we're all human, so let's, clean up, let's clean up our side of the

Eli:

street a little bit and that'll help make the world a little bit of

Eli:

a less chaotic place for our kids.

Destini:

Oh man.

Destini:

I think that's a good place to start the conversation.

Destini:

If you are willing, leading into this idea that maybe you don't love, implicitly,

Destini:

internally, unconsciously, maybe you don't love everything and everybody

Destini:

as a baseline, is that okay to say

Eli:

yeah.

Eli:

Like I, I have fears, I have fears about different groups of people

Eli:

and the way they live in the world and the way they think in the world.

Eli:

And you do too.

Eli:

And we all do.

Eli:

And so, I guess I want this particular conversation be a safe

Eli:

place to, to acknowledge that and.

Eli:

To then get to work on it a little bit.

Eli:

Like, okay, so I have that.

Eli:

What now?

Eli:

What can I do now?

Eli:

Will you define for us what you think about the word bias?

Eli:

what does that mean?

Eli:

So if I have a bias, what is it?

Eli:

What's a bias?

Destini:

It is a shortcut.

Destini:

It is a mental shortcut that we use to categorize things

Destini:

to make quick judgements.

Destini:

And sometimes it's helpful, sometimes it's harmful, sometimes it's neutral.

Destini:

But our brains are constantly taking in so much information, so much new information.

Destini:

And a lot of times we are drawing on our past experiences, past knowledge,

Destini:

past information, so that we can make.

Destini:

Quick decisions on, how we're going to interact with our environment.

Destini:

If you stop at a stoplight and you see somebody and you lock your door

Destini:

versus not locking your door, you made a decision based on bias and it was a

Destini:

quick decision and a lot of times it's not even something that we're aware

Destini:

of that might be an even more extreme example, but sometimes our biases show

Destini:

up in our tone with certain people.

Destini:

Our biases show up in how we carry ourselves in a specific situation.

Destini:

They're constantly just our thoughts, feelings,

Destini:

emotions.

Eli:

Or what we think is funny.

Eli:

I think what we think is funny, what we don't think is funny, I love this

Eli:

idea of it being a mental shortcut.

Eli:

It's a, it's a filter.

Eli:

It's a quick filter, right?

Eli:

So, we're in this very diverse, complicated world, and our brain's

Eli:

primary goal is to keep us alive, right?

Eli:

And so it's okay, so what's safe, what's unsafe?

Eli:

And.

Eli:

We are making conclusions without even knowing it.

Eli:

Sometimes they're conscious, but sometimes they're unconscious.

Eli:

I think we can be taught a bias, someone else can tell us something.

Eli:

to be biased against those people are bad, they're scary,

Eli:

they're dangerous, here's why.

Eli:

But we can also just unconsciously absorb a bias.

Eli:

I think when I was little growing up, I'm, I'm a little elder to you,

Eli:

but when I was growing up, there were very few, films or movies

Eli:

where the white guy was the bad guy.

Eli:

the bad guy almost always was someone who had darker skin, who, had an

Eli:

accent of some kind, potentially.

Eli:

And so I was absorbing that information without even knowing that I was being

Eli:

told a story or given a bias about that.

Eli:

And I can remember.

Eli:

When I was learning about bias in grad school and I, the carlock

Eli:

situation is such a great example.

Eli:

I was walking down the streets of Seattle and I never locked my car.

Eli:

I always have terrible cars.

Eli:

I'm not a good car person.

Eli:

they're not worth anything.

Eli:

I don't worry about them.

Eli:

And I got outta my car and there were three gentlemen walking towards me.

Eli:

And I looked back and locked my car and I looked back up and before I had

Eli:

even cognitively processed it, it was three black men walking towards me.

Eli:

And my brain said, lock your car.

Eli:

And I don't think, if you had asked me previously that day, do

Eli:

you believe that black men are more dangerous than white men?

Eli:

So if you had asked me that on a conscious level,

Eli:

I would've absolutely said no.

Eli:

No, I do not believe that that is not true.

Eli:

But my unconscious had four years absorbed things in the environment that had said.

Eli:

You better watch out.

Eli:

You better watch out.

Eli:

I come get you.

Eli:

And again, I don't care about my car, but somehow this unconscious

Eli:

bias inside of me went boop.

Eli:

And I think that doesn't mean I harbor deep feelings of hatred

Eli:

towards this group of people.

Eli:

It means, ah, I hadn't fully considered the way in which my environment had

Eli:

kept me from knowing people who were black and male and tall very well.

Eli:

I don't have a ton of exposure.

Eli:

So my brain didn't say it's cousin Lenny.

Eli:

That's a type of person who's gonna play cards with me and make me

Destini:

Your brain was playing some seventies black pimp, blaxploitation, film

Destini:

media or something, and it just made a

Destini:

great judgment.

Destini:

I mean, that is such a good example.

Destini:

Thank you.

Destini:

Thank you for sharing that and being transparent and to your point,

Destini:

that's not just a, a, a racial thing because I'm sure there are plenty.

Destini:

Black people, black people that feel differently when a white

Destini:

person is around their car versus a black person around their car.

Destini:

That is to your point, media.

Destini:

So it's not just what we're taught in our environments.

Destini:

the other part of that I think that is tricky is that I'm sure you felt

Destini:

that and you kind of noticed it when it happened because it wasn't

Destini:

in alignment with your values.

Destini:

Sometimes we don't realize those biases are there if we don't have a

Destini:

moment that and we're talking about people, we're sharing, our opinion

Destini:

of a situation that is far from us.

Destini:

So I'll make it a little bit more plain.

Destini:

You said that you were studying in, in school and you've

Destini:

been in classes with bias.

Destini:

I don't know if you've, you've gotten this example as well where they

Destini:

talk about the doctor and the car crash and the sun and all of that.

Eli:

Yes, do it.

Eli:

It's

Eli:

fun though.

Eli:

Do it.

Destini:

It is fun, right?

Destini:

So a man gets into a car accident with his son, and the son is rushed,

Destini:

rushed to the hospital, and the doctor walks in and says, I can't

Destini:

operate because that's my son.

Destini:

How's that possible?

Destini:

and the dad died, right?

Destini:

And they're how's that possible?

Destini:

And everybody in the class who did this as well in grad school, everybody in

Destini:

the class was uh, it's the stepdad.

Destini:

Or it's, they're trying to figure it out.

Destini:

And it never occurs that the mom,

Eli:

mom is the

Destini:

The mom is the doctor, right?

Destini:

And so in that regard, it's not necessarily against our values.

Destini:

It's not very shocking.

Destini:

It seems very small.

Destini:

But then when we have larger conversations about women and.

Destini:

Careers,

Destini:

women and maybe working long hours and being away from their kids.

Destini:

Just these snap judgments and opinions that we have that are

Destini:

rooted in these smaller, seemingly harmless biases that we don't realize

Destini:

impact laws impact how women are

Destini:

treated, impact the decisions we make as mothers or as women or whatever.

Destini:

And so

Destini:

I think that the work is recognizing when it goes against our values and

Destini:

sometimes it's recognizing that our values are rooted in things that we're not

Destini:

actually aware of are actually biases as

Eli:

yes.

Eli:

I think that's so important because, for our kids, our kids will have

Eli:

advantages and have connections based on some of those those biases.

Eli:

So if I am.

Eli:

Not thinking through my own bias as a parent.

Eli:

I, I might unconsciously by just not having a lot of friends that

Eli:

are of a different religion.

Eli:

You know, in fact, my kids asked me the other day, we were talking about

Eli:

what happened in Bondi Beach and how horrible that was and who the

Eli:

different players were in the situation and why, and what does that all

Eli:

mean?

Eli:

And I'm really big about saying listen, there are hurtful people

Eli:

in every faith and there are helpful people in every faith.

Eli:

Anyway, my kids said, mom, do we have any Muslim friends?

Eli:

And I was like, I've one and you've never met her.

Eli:

And that was a moment for me of what I am doing based on who's in proximity

Eli:

to me and who my kids are exposed to.

Eli:

that's gonna have an impact on what they learn or they don't learn, and

Eli:

it's gonna have an impact on me.

Eli:

And so I've learned a lot about the Muslim community by traveling, by

Eli:

being someone who's traveled a lot by being in, education settings where

Eli:

I've learned things from speakers, but online, by who I choose to follow

Eli:

online, all those kind of things.

Eli:

But my kids don't have all of that access at this point.

Eli:

They haven't been to Indonesia yet.

Eli:

if I'm not dealing with that, and I'm not thinking through these pieces, it's

Eli:

well, who am I choosing as friends?

Eli:

That's about bias.

Eli:

and, and obviously I, I don't want this to become for people oh my

Eli:

gosh, right now, leave this podcast.

Eli:

Go find a variety of people that you don't know and weirdly

Eli:

ask 'em to be your friend.

Eli:

It's more about reflecting on it.

Eli:

and, part of, part of the absence of, of Muslim friends in my

Eli:

world is, is where we live.

Eli:

There is not a large Muslim community where we live.

Eli:

and so, thinking through and reflecting on this and being curious about it and,

Eli:

having some awareness of it, because if next year, there is a kid in my

Eli:

daughter's class who is Muslim and she is in a community where there's very

Eli:

little representation, there's a lot that I can do with my kids in that

Eli:

moment to help that person and that family feel safer and feel included,

Eli:

right?

Eli:

And not feel as on the outside.

Eli:

but if I'm not thinking about that, I'm not talking about it,

Eli:

it's probably not gonna happen.

Destini:

Well, one thing I do know about you, is that you have

Destini:

a bias towards curiosity at least.

Destini:

And so to your point, we can't fight every fight and we can't,

Destini:

try to fix every single thing and be aware of every single thing.

Destini:

But I will say that this is one of many conversations that you've

Destini:

brought up where bias, or lack of proximity is a thing and you've

Destini:

leaned in with curiosity, so,

Eli:

Well, my favorite quote is Tyler Merritt.

Eli:

He says, distance breeds suspicion, but proximity breeds empathy.

Eli:

I, I guess I just, I really believe in human beings.

Eli:

I, at their core, when we get close to people, they usually

Eli:

start to make more sense,

Eli:

well, okay.

Eli:

Tell us a little bit about, you've been working with Harvard and you're

Eli:

connected there, and there is a study at Harvard that is really important around

Eli:

this topic, the implicit bias study.

Eli:

That's kind of one of the why reasons why we know that we all have biases.

Eli:

Tell us about that study and how it's impacted you and how

Eli:

you deal with your biases.

Destini:

I think it's something 20 million people have taken that

Destini:

test . Researchers at Harvard, created this implicit or unconscious biases,

Destini:

and it's more of an association test where you are asked to quickly sort

Destini:

through images, for example, pairing faces with positive and negative words.

Destini:

And so the test is supposed to measure our speed, not our opinion.

Destini:

It's not measuring morals, it's basically what comes from our quick

Destini:

associations, and our quick judgements.

Destini:

And so with all of the participants, people showed automatic preferences

Destini:

related to things there's a race test, there's one on gender, age ability.

Destini:

And so these preferences, a lot of times to our point, didn't match

Destini:

our stated beliefs, our stated opinions, our stated values.

Destini:

And so it's something that can influence how we react before

Destini:

even realizing that we're actually

Destini:

reacting.

Destini:

and so the other part of that is our kids aren't immune to that.

Destini:

And our kids develop biases early and our kids see our biases in play without

Destini:

knowing that's actually what's happening.

Eli:

Which I think is about belonging also.

Eli:

this connects into attachment and community to me is okay, the core.

Eli:

that we've had as a species for survival is togetherness.

Eli:

And that group, that in-group belonging, is a part of how we survive.

Eli:

We stay warm together.

Eli:

We, we share resources together.

Eli:

We protect each other from nefarious outsiders, whether those outsiders

Eli:

are tigers or a different group of people who, wants to steal our land

Eli:

so I think there's something in the innate human desire to belong.

Eli:

And in that bias, that quick filter going, okay, what makes us and us, right?

Eli:

Is it our religion?

Eli:

Is it our race?

Eli:

Is it our socioeconomic status?

Eli:

is it our gender?

Eli:

and wanting that special feeling of we belong together.

Eli:

And so that.

Eli:

Is a place of dignity to look at for ourselves of okay, the core

Eli:

driver there is wanting to belong.

Eli:

the bias becomes a problem when it's justifying harm.

Eli:

It's I don't know.

Eli:

I imagine that you have black female friends that you find immense

Eli:

belonging with because you have a shared experience of the world.

Destini:

Can I say what's underneath that for me?

Destini:

What's coming through?

Destini:

what's coming through beneath you belong is you make sense?

Destini:

And I think that

Destini:

Is where it's difficult, where it seems people's values aren't in alignment with

Destini:

their biases because sometimes our biases allow us to feel we still make sense when

Destini:

something else challenges our sense of self, sense of value, sense of belonging

Destini:

in a group.

Destini:

And I think that that is what we're seeing and that's when it gets tricky, the

Destini:

idea of two things being able to exist.

Destini:

And so we don't just get less bias with proximity, we also get less bias

Destini:

with diversity and diverse proximity.

Destini:

So I think that's also really important that you make sense and your way

Destini:

of being existing and belonging

Destini:

doesn't mean that I belong less and

Destini:

for.

Destini:

Some people, their media, their social experiences have always

Destini:

told them that they make sense.

Destini:

In some

Destini:

ways make more sense.

Destini:

So as diversity is coming in, as diverse thought is coming in, it

Destini:

almost is unconsciously this feeling that I don't make sense anymore.

Destini:

What I thought and what I've been told is true, is not true.

Destini:

And that's in some way harmful to me.

Destini:

And that is a quick judgment that I think is rooted in the fear of not

Destini:

making sense, fear of not belonging.

Destini:

and I think that that's hard for people to say and name and tell the truth about.

Eli:

Can you share examples of your experience of the ways that the world

Eli:

has communicated you don't make sense, and how that impacts you and your kids?

Destini:

I'll share one that I've seen recently.

Destini:

there was a graduation and it was, mostly black graduation and they were going

Destini:

across the stage and they were just expressing joy and they were loud and

Destini:

they were dancing and they were taking up space and it was so offensive to so

Destini:

many things that they're out of decorum and this is ridiculous and this isn't

Destini:

okay,

Destini:

but it made sense to them.

Destini:

That was their sense of belonging.

Destini:

It made sense to me.

Destini:

it never crossed my mind that that was not okay.

Destini:

I felt seen in that.

Destini:

I was this is the kind of graduation I want to go to.

Eli:

Yeah.

Destini:

However, to others who maybe felt that doesn't make sense, you don't realize

Destini:

that you have a value, that everybody should be able to experience joy.

Destini:

Everybody should be able to celebrate, but they're celebrating in a way

Destini:

that does not make sense to you.

Destini:

And so your natural or your first inclination is to judge it and say

Destini:

that it's wrong or say that it's bad.

Destini:

That's a bias, and that's a bias towards your way of

Destini:

celebrating, your way of expressing

Eli:

Mm-hmm.

Eli:

The decorum is, this is the, this is what we're supposed to do in

Eli:

this particular type of a ceremony.

Eli:

This is what a ceremonial, tone is.

Eli:

Ceremonial tone is very, calm, not very expressive, and someone

Eli:

would maybe see that as respectful.

Eli:

oh, this is what it means to be respectful in a ceremony.

Eli:

And without realizing oh, that's a cultural norm.

Eli:

I'd love to hear you speak to why you think that is, but in the black community.

Eli:

The respect for the moment is an exuberance of expression as opposed

Eli:

to a inhibiting of expression.

Eli:

What,

Eli:

so it's, it's, less about it being solemn and more about, an expression.

Eli:

Why do you think that is?

Eli:

What do you think that historically, culturally, what does that come from?

Destini:

Well, our joy is liberating and I think that.

Destini:

I mean, it's in, it's in our weddings, it's in our funerals.

Destini:

decorum goes out the window at a funeral, at a black funeral at black church.

Destini:

I think that it's a form of resistance in a sense.

Destini:

I think just culturally, it's probably very rooted in our heritage as well.

Destini:

we, not from here, So certain cultural norms are still going to

Destini:

be passed down through generations and lineage, and they don't always

Destini:

fit into European standards of

Destini:

living, celebrating, grieving.

Destini:

so yeah, a lot of those things are cultural.

Destini:

A lot of those things come down to heritage and a lot of those things maybe

Destini:

make people uncomfortable, but give us a sense of a sense of belonging.

Eli:

Yeah, I'm just imagining being in that audience and I grew up in

Eli:

communities that very much celebration and ceremony was about controlled decorum.

Eli:

The kids are quiet.

Eli:

Everyone's quiet.

Eli:

We're paying close attention.

Eli:

that's how you communicate the respect.

Eli:

Actually, I have a memory of this.

Eli:

I went to Pepperdine University for undergrad.

Eli:

I remember being at the graduation and there were very few black

Eli:

students at my school, and there was one black student graduating

Eli:

and she got up and she did a dance.

Eli:

And she danced and danced and her whole community got up and they, it was

Eli:

everyone had the chair over and it was So awkward in that auditorium because

Eli:

every, because it was what is this?

Eli:

it was just so unfamiliar.

Eli:

and people responded to that awkwardness, I think, in one or two ways.

Eli:

One is sort of a, looking down that's

Eli:

immaturity.

Eli:

that was an immature response to this environment.

Eli:

The other was like, people kind of laughing at it, like

Eli:

thinking it was kind of funny.

Eli:

but I think if I had my kids in that situation, what would I say to them?

Eli:

And what I would say is, look, there are so many different ways to celebrate.

Eli:

There are so many different ways to do ceremony.

Eli:

Like, what did you feel?

Eli:

How did you feel about her name was Latonya.

Eli:

I still remember her name because her, she was being cheered on so intensely.

Eli:

what did, what did you feel when Latonya was dancing and her family was cheering?

Eli:

like, what'd you feel?

Eli:

Was that uncomfortable?

Eli:

Was that new?

Eli:

Was that kind of liberating?

Eli:

Do you kind of wish that we did that?

Eli:

Or maybe you don't, like, what, what are the different

Eli:

feelings you have about that?

Eli:

And then I think, just holding people's dignity, And, and if you

Eli:

don't know much about it, going, what?

Eli:

I don't know that, what that was, but let's search that together.

Eli:

Let's get home, let's go home and Google, how do black folk respond to celebrations?

Destini:

How did black folks celebrate at the graduation?

Destini:

But it's, I would rather you lead with curiosity and I don't

Destini:

know, than the automatic judgment of there's something wrong.

Destini:

This is outta place, this is

Destini:

this is in, it's, it's inappropriate.

Destini:

That's the word that that

Destini:

gets used.

Destini:

It's, it's inappropriate.

Destini:

That's just how they're celebrating and it's different and it makes sense.

Destini:

It makes sense to them, and it doesn't have to make sense to me.

Destini:

And if I'm confused or I'm aware of how I'm feeling, then I can get more

Destini:

information so that it does make sense.

Destini:

But it's okay that it doesn't.

Destini:

White people do stuff all the time.

Destini:

That makes no sense to me.

Destini:

That is okay.

Destini:

It.

Eli:

Do you remember that there was that book that came out?

Eli:

This is, again, I may be aging myself.

Eli:

This was probably 15 years ago, but it was I think it was called S&*!

Eli:

People, S&*!, white People Do, and it was such a trend.

Eli:

The white community because it was so surprising to us that

Eli:

we weren't just the standard.

Eli:

It was wait, you're, you think we do weird things, aren't we just the default?

Eli:

I think the way that bias gets distributed based on who holds influence,

Eli:

decision making power, who are the filmmakers, who are the writers of

Eli:

the screenwriters and who has access to make those stories and

Eli:

decide, which character is the beautiful desired character and

Eli:

which character is the villain.

Eli:

And that our bias is largely informed by what we're exposed to.

Eli:

And what we're exposed to is largely informed by who holds the keys to

Eli:

those places of decision making.

Eli:

and so, you've not been surprised that there are groups of people

Eli:

who do things differently than you because you've lived your whole life

Eli:

watching the story of those people.

Eli:

Right.

Eli:

And I think for the average person who grows up as a default, I think we can

Eli:

talk about this in gender too, where, I'll have to explain sometimes to my husband

Eli:

Hey, that thing that just happened, that was 'cause I'm a woman, And he,

Eli:

because he's well, oh, I don't know.

Eli:

I think he just was saying this or that.

Eli:

I'm I want you to imagine that person talking to you in that same tone.

Eli:

I want you to imagine that.

Eli:

What would that incite in you and, and recognizing, that I've been studying

Eli:

what happens in the male world and male.

Eli:

Control over a lot of things my whole life as a woman, and you

Eli:

haven't had to study women in the same way that I've had to study men.

Eli:

It's just different.

Eli:

And I think that's true in race.

Eli:

I think that's true in religion, depending on where you live,

Eli:

what religion is dominant.

Eli:

And that's different in different countries, in different places,

Destini:

It's true with sexuality for sure.

Eli:

Absolutely.

Eli:

I mean, I think any identity if you aren't thinking through what have I been

Eli:

taught about this, then you're probably just absorbing the information that's

Eli:

been handed to you by whoever has the ability to hand out the information.

Eli:

And the internet has changed this just to a large degree, which I'm so thankful for.

Eli:

people can have platforms without, being at NBC news or wherever.

Eli:

But I think we, we still have a long way to go to cultivate a, a

Eli:

community of humanity where we respect,

Eli:

Hey, you're a human.

Eli:

I'm a human.

Eli:

You're different than me.

Eli:

What do you, what can you teach me about life that I don't know,

Eli:

because I don't live in your body, in, in your particular viewpoint,

Eli:

in your perspective in your nation.

Eli:

And, we have a long way to go.

Destini:

it is step one, honesty about what those things are, though.

Destini:

And step one, recognizing and acknowledging that my first

Destini:

inclination is not curiosity, and the only reason I'm getting curious

Destini:

is because initially I judged

Destini:

this,

Destini:

it's very easy to have this high and mighty, well, why did you

Destini:

look at that child that way?

Destini:

Because they were in a wheelchair.

Destini:

as opposed to

Destini:

letting our kids know, because then we're moving away from the truth,

Destini:

which is that we all have bias.

Destini:

It is

Destini:

a human thing to do.

Eli:

Yes.

Eli:

Yep.

Destini:

able to allow our kids to say.

Destini:

The truth starts with us being able to acknowledge and say the truth first.

Destini:

We can't skip over that part.

Destini:

We can't

Destini:

move into these conversations with our kids.

Destini:

In the curiosity it has to be, oh, I had this thought first

Destini:

when Latonya got up and danced.

Destini:

I I felt a little uncomfortable.

Destini:

I was it, it felt unnerving to me.

Destini:

It felt a little inappropriate to me.

Destini:

I wanna get curious about that.

Destini:

Not, reading our kids' faces are you well, why do you think Latanya's

Destini:

family got up and celebrated?

Destini:

And I think it's important for us, just our triggers, just our

Destini:

patterns and behaviors to start with self-awareness and exuding

Destini:

that and that in our parenting.

Destini:

Because these things don't just impact our kids.

Destini:

They impact the kids that our kids are around and the world

Eli:

absolutely.

Eli:

Well, I think one of the things that you and I have talked about that feels very

Eli:

relevant and important in this dialogue is the way that our biases can actually turn

Eli:

towards ourselves and our kids' selves.

Eli:

So we can internalize a bias and it becomes a self-hatred.

Eli:

as a woman, I'm not, immune to believing that women are, less capable

Eli:

of flying a plane or less capable of being a doctor using your thing.

Eli:

And so I can actually.

Eli:

Be biased against myself.

Eli:

That's so messed up.

Eli:

But it's true.

Eli:

So part of the gift to our children is being able to

Eli:

say, Hey, we all have biases.

Eli:

And sometimes those biases, those quick, mental conclusions

Eli:

are incomplete pieces of information.

Eli:

And sometimes they happen towards other people and sometimes they happen to us.

Eli:

And it's not a shame thing.

Eli:

This is hard for me sometimes as a parent because it's so important to me.

Eli:

I do not want my kids to be bigoted towards people in, in any way.

Eli:

And so sometimes when my kids say things that are very overtly problematic and

Eli:

biased, I want to clamp down on it.

Eli:

I'm no sir, no ma'am.

Eli:

We do not do that in this house.

Eli:

And, and, but

Destini:

well, we just did, so let's.

Eli:

Right, right.

Eli:

And so I think one, I just wanna validate, for most of the people

Eli:

listening to this episode, you do not want your kids to be biased.

Eli:

You don't wanna be biased.

Eli:

And there's kind of a panic that happens when bias enters the room.

Eli:

And so my invitation to myself, to all of us, is to be able to make

Eli:

bias as talkable as we can, which means we can't overreact to it.

Eli:

I'll give you an example.

Eli:

I'm in the car, we're touring middle schools this week.

Eli:

I have a group of three boys and I live in a, in a area

Eli:

that has very little diversity.

Eli:

That's just the truth of where I live.

Eli:

And so my son and his two friends, all white guys, and they're picking the music.

Eli:

He's play this song.

Eli:

Play this song.

Eli:

And he's saying to my son, search for, Indian Christmas music.

Eli:

And as soon as he starts searching, I'm Lord, have mercy.

Eli:

What's happening right now?

Eli:

And all it is, is someone with an Indian accent singing classic Christmas

Eli:

music and the boys are cracking up.

Eli:

And, what I had to do, 'cause what I wanted to do was right

Eli:

away say, no sirs kibosh.

Eli:

But I was like, I have gotta calm myself down before I do this because

Eli:

I am going to make this an impossible conversation if I come in too strong.

Eli:

Because what they are doing right now, they are not trying to have

Eli:

cruelty towards someone who has an accent that is not their intention.

Eli:

They don't understand why they think it's funny.

Destini:

Hmm.

Eli:

And they're not laughing out of maliciousness.

Eli:

So I took a deep breath.

Eli:

The song started playing.

Eli:

They started laughing and I was like, get, gather yourself together, Eli.

Eli:

How can you explain this at a level that it is invites them to be, to

Eli:

be curious without shaming them and also opening their eyes to how

Eli:

this might feel to somebody who is Indian watching this happen.

Eli:

So I just paused and I was like, hold on guys.

Eli:

One second.

Eli:

I'm gonna pause the song.

Eli:

I was like, I want you to think for a minute.

Eli:

If you had a friend who was Indian and they were in the car right now,

Eli:

would it feel different playing that song and laughing about it?

Eli:

And one of the kids goes, well, we wouldn't have played it.

Eli:

So there was some level of an awareness of it.

Eli:

We wouldn't have played it.

Eli:

And I was like, well, why?

Eli:

Why wouldn't have you have played it?

Eli:

And he was like, well, because I don't know.

Eli:

It would feel like I was laughing at them.

Eli:

I was like, ding, that was so smart.

Eli:

You are so smart.

Eli:

You know, I'm like validating that intuition in their bodies that was there.

Eli:

And then I said, you know, I think it's easy to laugh at things we don't

Eli:

understand and to see it as a joke, but that actually is really, really

Eli:

hurtful for someone on the receiving end.

Eli:

And I want, you guys are such incredible leaders.

Eli:

I don't, I don't want you to get caught up in things that are

Eli:

ultimately not true to your hearts.

Eli:

So let's think of something else that can make us laugh

Eli:

that isn't laughing at someone.

Eli:

at the way they talk, at the way they speak.

Eli:

And let's also remember that the person who was making that

Eli:

music spoke two languages.

Eli:

That's respect, Now, obviously I'm a killjoy in that moment.

Eli:

You know, those boys are like, but I feel really proud of them and me

Eli:

that we were able to navigate that moment and think about it more.

Eli:

And my hope is that the next time someone is laughing about something, you know,

Eli:

they're making an a, an accent joke.

Eli:

That that, that there will be a little voice in their head that's like, what

Eli:

would it feel like if someone who had that identity was in the room right now?

Eli:

Maybe this isn't actually something we should be laughing about.

Eli:

You know, I teach them to look both ways when they cross the road.

Eli:

Why wouldn't I teach them how to be careful with the things that

Destini:

I'm curious, why.

Destini:

What do you think would be beneath a parent maybe wanting to avoid those

Destini:

conversations and just leave it alone?

Destini:

Like maybe getting that itch to say something in the car, but just not,

Eli:

it because it is uncomfortable.

Eli:

I felt uncomfortable in all of that.

Eli:

Like with, especially with, there being like two of my son's friends, it's

Eli:

like I don't want them to feel like I don't wanna go to Slate's house.

Eli:

'cause his mom's always harping on us about, you know, what we're

Eli:

supposed to say and not say.

Eli:

I think not wanting kids to feel, I think very much knowing that they're just

Eli:

being kids, that there is an innocence.

Eli:

In that it's an ignorance they don't know.

Eli:

So I think it being, feeling like we don't wanna rest big, heavy things on our kids.

Eli:

We don't want them to feel the weight of the world, that they don't have the

Eli:

power to fully understand or change.

Eli:

What do you think?

Eli:

What else do you think is in there?

Destini:

I think you hit the nail on the head.

Destini:

And also it's not being able to see the bridge of how that

Destini:

manifests and develops long term.

Destini:

It's could potentially be one of those things where it's like, is it worth.

Destini:

All of the things that you just said because they are kids.

Destini:

And then the discomfort of I'm addressing something in them that

Destini:

potentially I don't always feel comfortable looking at in myself.

Destini:

Like, maybe I'm not the person that needs to be addressing this.

Destini:

I don't know if you would feel that way personally, but I'm sure that there

Destini:

are probably parents that are like, that made me uncomfortable when my

Destini:

child said that, but I'm sure that my biases show up in many different ways.

Destini:

And is this gonna be a hypocritical moment?

Destini:

It made me uncomfortable 'cause I heard them say it,

Destini:

I've had that thought.

Destini:

Yeah, I've had that thought or I've probably made those kinds of jokes

Destini:

or, I haven't corrected them in the past, so now I'm more aware.

Destini:

Is that gonna be contradictory?

Destini:

It's kind of

Destini:

just easier to just continue how things have been.

Eli:

Yeah.

Eli:

I mean, we're beating a dead horse with the word curious, but I think it's a

Eli:

good little script to just memorize for yourself in these moments to just say.

Eli:

To start out with, I'm curious, and you could say things like, I'm

Eli:

curious why you think I haven't spoken up about this before.

Eli:

Why do you think that is?

Eli:

I talk to my kids about how other people's safety is more

Eli:

important than our discomfort.

Eli:

and that's a big, kind of value thing that we hold in our house.

Eli:

and so we can return back to that of yeah, it's uncomfortable when someone

Eli:

calls us out or calls us in, around something we're doing that might could

Eli:

lead to something harmful for them.

Eli:

That's uncomfortable.

Eli:

But our discomfort is not the priority.

Eli:

Safety is the priority, and we would want that same thing from other people.

Eli:

this week our school got canceled for three days because of windstorms.

Eli:

And what happened is the energy company brilliantly.

Eli:

Dead.

Eli:

We're gonna do planned outages, after the LA fires.

Eli:

And we had a Lewisville fire up here not that long ago.

Eli:

It was, they were horrible.

Eli:

And so, we're learning from history and the energy.

Eli:

People say, okay, we're turning that off.

Eli:

but it was the last three days of school before Christmas break, which

Eli:

are the funnest school days of the year.

Eli:

And there was disappointment.

Eli:

And I held that disappointment with them.

Eli:

I was disappointed too.

Eli:

They were also my last three days to accomplish work

Eli:

before the Christmas break.

Eli:

this is uncomfortable.

Eli:

I hear you.

Eli:

It's disappointing, it's uncomfortable.

Eli:

And I want us to think through what honestly likely would've happened

Eli:

with 90 mile an hour gust winds in a very dry, warm December.

Eli:

If the, protections hadn't been put in place.

Eli:

and this, this isn't about saying your pain doesn't matter.

Eli:

That's not what we're saying we're saying.

Eli:

When we can, we always wanna prioritize other people's safety and dignity

Eli:

over our awkwardness or discomfort.

Destini:

Yeah.

Destini:

And leaning into perspective taking and cognitive flexibility and so

Destini:

many things that allow our children, not just to navigate relationships

Destini:

better, but to navigate their own lives as individuals better.

Destini:

So having those hard

Destini:

conversations, pausing and asking our kids to get curious.

Destini:

It is just as important as anything else that we're teaching them.

Destini:

And I think sometimes we don't realize that that's still distress tolerance.

Destini:

Like you were leading in distress tolerance in that conversation.

Destini:

You were

Destini:

leading in distress tolerance when you noticed the songs about to be

Destini:

played and you leaned in instead.

Destini:

And that gives them more capacity to be able to take perspective, to

Destini:

be able to make decisions, and to be able to have more flexibility.

Destini:

And so I think

Destini:

that

Destini:

beyond just how it impacts other people, you are raising children

Destini:

that have self management.

Eli:

This goes back to secure attachment.

Eli:

You're right.

Eli:

The message is we can handle this.

Eli:

You can rely on me in this moment.

Eli:

I'm gonna get us through this awkwardness.

Eli:

We're gonna learn something, we're gonna figure out what to do.

Eli:

another reason to be a parent who takes accountability for

Eli:

the impacts that we make.

Eli:

Hey, I'm so sorry I responded with harshness.

Eli:

I'd like to try that again.

Eli:

I didn't feel great about the way I just talked to you, so that

Eli:

our kids can see it's okay to say.

Eli:

I don't like what just happened or I feel bad, and to take accountability,

Eli:

that taking accountability doesn't mean saying I am the bad guy.

Eli:

It means I hurt someone and something I did hurt, and I care about that.

Destini:

A lot of the root, a lot of the root of this

Destini:

conversation is being able to.

Destini:

Separate behavior from worth value characteristics.

Destini:

It's, it's the guilt versus shame kind of conversation.

Eli:

Totally,

Destini:

And that's so important because you were not judging them in the car.

Destini:

It wasn't a character flaw.

Destini:

You were making an observation

Destini:

and you all got curious about that observation.

Destini:

Right.

Destini:

And you leading with curiosity means that sometimes you're not gonna be right.

Destini:

Sometimes it is your bias towards not harming people.

Destini:

That's, you've taken a little too far.

Destini:

It's a little too deep.

Destini:

Like an example of that recently actually, I think we've kind of talked

Destini:

about this before, where my daughter would like take her bonnet off to

Destini:

get on FaceTime with her friends.

Destini:

And her friends are white.

Destini:

Like she wouldn't wear her bonnet.

Destini:

Well, all her friends aren't white.

Destini:

But this particular situation, she was getting on FaceTime with

Destini:

her white friends, and she took her bonnet off and I was like.

Destini:

These are your friends.

Destini:

You can't wear your bond around your friends.

Destini:

And I'm bringing so much of my bias of like, nah, we gonna be black, period.

Destini:

Like, we're not suppressing, what are you doing?

Destini:

Right.

Destini:

My bias towards not, masking right.

Destini:

And, how important that is to me, like in this season and all of that.

Destini:

And she's, she's like responding.

Destini:

I didn't have any curiosity at all.

Destini:

but she respond and she's just like, I'm just trying to be cute.

Destini:

Like, it has no like, cultural thing.

Destini:

Like, and I'm like, I don't know, maybe that her friends

Destini:

put their hair in a ponytail.

Destini:

Maybe they, Like, I just want it to feel cute.

Destini:

And sometimes I think that we create story where it's not there.

Destini:

She's like, if they were over here, I would have my body on like.

Destini:

It is not that deep all the time.

Destini:

And so how do we stay in that space and that curious And I'm like, okay,

Destini:

yeah, there, there are friends that I would take my body off and it has

Destini:

nothing to do with like race or me trying not to be black in this moment.

Destini:

So how

Destini:

do you

Destini:

navigate?

Destini:

It's not, and I'm sure it might be harder as a white woman because you are like,

Destini:

I don't want to raise bigoted kids.

Destini:

I dont wanna raise racist kids.

Destini:

Like how do you manage that level of curiosity?

Destini:

Because for all, you know, this Indian singer could have been a comedian

Destini:

and the songs were not him, them laughing about the accents, possibly

Destini:

laughing about a lyric change.

Destini:

Like

Destini:

how do

Destini:

we not bull?

Destini:

How do

Destini:

Kids to be curious?

Eli:

Totally, I mean, I think pausing and, and that's where, you heard me

Eli:

talking myself, I was like, okay, Eli, like get yourself together.

Eli:

Right?

Eli:

Like, like sit in the moment and absorb, absorb the moment,

Eli:

like what is happening here?

Eli:

I think if you are living from a place of anxiety around bias, I actually think

Eli:

it makes it harder to deal with it.

Eli:

So, because then it's like, oh my gosh, am I being unbiased?

Eli:

Are you being biased?

Eli:

And there's a hyper vigilance that will then I think it in the way

Eli:

of dealing with it, because it will come up, it will play out.

Eli:

you will accidentally say something or do something.

Eli:

all of us do.

Eli:

And if we are paranoid about.

Eli:

I've gotta manage it.

Eli:

I gotta manage it from an anxiety place.

Eli:

I think it's really hard to teach our kids that it can be handled, now our

Eli:

fear of being biased is getting in the way of us and them versus the opposite.

Eli:

where I, I think we're seeing some trends around adult children

Eli:

and their relationship with their parents and children, adult children

Eli:

not wanting to be close to their parents because they feel like their

Eli:

parents have a lot of unexamined biases and they don't respect them.

Eli:

They've, they've lost respect for their leadership as parents.

Eli:

and so when we have this conversation, I really want people to hear loud and clear.

Eli:

Like, Hey, it's important that we don't dig our heels in and say, yeah,

Eli:

well, I just don't like that group of people and I think they are wrong.

Eli:

And this is why that we develop a more mature, nuanced understanding of

Eli:

humanity and say, like, that's a group of people that I don't have a lot of,

Eli:

information about or experience with, and I'm a little uncomfortable around

Eli:

because I'm afraid of this or that.

Eli:

But I probably should do some work on that.

Destini:

Well,

Destini:

What then can we do or what do

Destini:

you, we had that conversation about like what we can do when we are noticing.

Destini:

Those biases because

Destini:

to your point, I don't want to, my kids grow up and they're like, uh,

Destini:

my mom, she's just so set in her ways that that's probably not gonna happen.

Destini:

I don't want that to happen.

Destini:

And I know that that's probably a concern for parents as well, or even,

Destini:

just staying curious and staying open because the things that we are not curious

Destini:

about, sometimes we can justify them.

Destini:

Like there are certain people

Destini:

right now, in life because of their behaviors and their, because of their

Destini:

actions that I have less curiosity around.

Destini:

And so how do we recognize, acknowledge those things and decide

Destini:

what to do with them, with our kids?

Eli:

I'll start a first thought and then you dig in.

Eli:

But my first thought is exposure.

Eli:

I

Eli:

think the.

Eli:

the.

Eli:

root of the bigotry, the root of violence, hate violence and hate

Eli:

crimes is, is a dedicated determination of misunderstanding people, right?

Eli:

Going, this is what I think about them, and I'm gonna keep

Eli:

building this case about this.

Eli:

And the opposite of that is allowing ourselves to be exposed to.

Eli:

people themselves, but also, stories, narratives, information, so if

Eli:

you are, I think for myself, I grew up in a, a very evangelical home.

Eli:

There was a lot of fear of other religions in the way that I grew up, and it was

Eli:

later on in life when I made friends in different communities of different faiths.

Eli:

I was like, oh wait, okay, so this was what I was taught, but I'm

Eli:

gonna open up my brain and learn a little bit more and be more curious.

Eli:

It's very easy for me as a mother now, because basically, like if

Eli:

you've had a kid, I'm like, mm-hmm.

Eli:

You have a kid, we are mothers.

Eli:

We might have all sorts of differences of opinion.

Eli:

We might have voted for a very different person, but you have a kid.

Eli:

And so there's shared humanity in that for me what else would you say?

Destini:

Well, I think maybe the step one to that too, the proximity

Destini:

is the awareness of patterns, right?

Destini:

And the awareness of the opposite of curiosity.

Destini:

Where is your black and white thinking?

Destini:

Where does your all

Destini:

or nothing thinking live?

Destini:

Where are your generalizations?

Destini:

Right?

Destini:

Where is your men do this, women do that, white people do this, Christians do that.

Destini:

Where are

Destini:

those spaces?

Destini:

You notice that first because sometimes, our biases really aren't

Destini:

that strong and it's just a in the moment kind of thing, and it's not a

Destini:

pattern.

Destini:

And other times we are, we're committed to the block on some

Destini:

things.

Destini:

We are like committed to the storyline.

Destini:

Notice those things.

Destini:

Notice when you're making generalizations, is it for the

Destini:

sake of the argument or is this genuinely what dictates your behavior?

Destini:

And then when that's the case, proximity means diverse.

Destini:

Proximity means believing that there are other examples, and real relentlessly

Destini:

finding those other examples.

Destini:

If I believe based on evidence or based on my experience or based on the things

Destini:

that I saw in my childhood or media or whatever, if I believe that men

Destini:

are not respectful to women, men are unsafe, that is a bias that I do have.

Destini:

You just laugh.

Eli:

I did, I did like an empathetic laugh because well, it gets messy because

Eli:

I think there's always a sliver of truth

Eli:

that we have to reckon with in order to relentlessly look for the nuance.

Eli:

So the sliver of truth is that men perpetrate a lot

Eli:

of violence against women.

Eli:

That is a documented truth.

Eli:

But then if the bias from that truth becomes all men are violent.

Eli:

Now we have lost the nuance.

Eli:

And the truth is, there are more men that aren't violent than men that are,

Destini:

well, to the question that we asked in that is, is this truth

Destini:

impacting my actions, and if so, is it impacting my actions in ways that keep

Destini:

me safe or ways that keep me small?

Destini:

Because if I have

Destini:

a bias that men are unsafe and so I have a certain level of caution

Destini:

that keeps me safe, that's helpful.

Destini:

If I have a certain level of caution that keeps me, out of intimacy, that keeps me

Destini:

out of closeness, that keeps me from experiencing the benefits

Destini:

of the men that are not unsafe,

Destini:

then I owe it to myself to find better

Destini:

examples, because that story

Destini:

is keeping me

Destini:

safe in one way and not another.

Destini:

Yeah.

Destini:

Does it keep me safe

Destini:

or does it keep me small?

Destini:

That bias action.

Destini:

How it plays out, and if that action is keeping me safe, makes

Destini:

sense.

Destini:

If that action is keeping me small, that's actually really

Destini:

harmful to us as individuals.

Destini:

Like if you've never been to black church, I'm just, it is not keeping

Destini:

you safe to think that you have to behave a certain way in a sanctuary.

Destini:

That's all I'm, that's all I'm saying.

Destini:

Like if I have a bias or belief about a group and it's keeping me safe based

Destini:

on the specific situation, right?

Destini:

Like I

Destini:

can believe that it's not safe to travel by myself, so that might make me a little

Destini:

more cautious, make me a little more safe.

Destini:

If that's also keeping me from exploring certain countries, then if that's keeping

Destini:

me from exploring certain cultures that I have to acknowledge and recognize that.

Destini:

My all or nothing deep thinking is keeping me small.

Destini:

And so I think that is step one is being aware of what those patterns are.

Destini:

Step two, proximity to diverse examples.

Destini:

What's the opposite truth

Destini:

If the truth is that men are safe, I need to find examples where they're not.

Destini:

we can find those examples in our area, but we can also find them.

Destini:

We have the googles, we have the social medias right?

Destini:

Our, the problem is our algorithms are going to lean

Destini:

towards where our biases are.

Destini:

But so we

Destini:

have to actively search out diverse proximity.

Destini:

we have to increase our proximity.

Destini:

And then I also feel like beyond, increasing our proximity and also

Destini:

increasing our kids' proximity.

Destini:

Right.

Destini:

'cause you just said like you don't live in a diverse area.

Destini:

My area is not very diverse as well.

Destini:

So if I notice a pattern in my children,

Destini:

I need to increase their proximity.

Destini:

It's not

Destini:

just just for ourselves.

Eli:

For me that having books that display, characters and ideas of folks

Eli:

that are diverse, having toys that are diverse in their, representation

Eli:

of humanity, films, shows, and, traveling and then talking about it,

Eli:

I'll talk about their class, and I'll be like, Hey, have you noticed that?

Eli:

There are only like three kids in your class that have

Eli:

like a darker tone of skin.

Eli:

Have you noticed that?

Eli:

I'm like, yeah, I did.

Eli:

I didn't.

Eli:

I know that you say that.

Eli:

You know, and like, making it mentionable also helps reduce

Eli:

the bias because kids are really astute to what we don't talk about.

Eli:

And so it's like, if we aren't talking about that, it must be something, right.

Eli:

If we aren't acknowledging people that are different and, and that,

Eli:

can play out in all different ways.

Eli:

You know, like that algorithmic.

Eli:

These are my people.

Eli:

These are not my people.

Eli:

These are the bad guys, these are the good guys.

Eli:

This is what's trying to destroy humanity.

Eli:

No, this is what's trying to destroy humanity.

Eli:

And it so it gets really messy.

Eli:

And I think the thing that we can do at our core is just have the

Eli:

humility to recognize that our brains are making these quick,

Eli:

biased decisions without information.

Eli:

And that we're gonna get caught in that at some point.

Eli:

And our kids are gonna catch us in it, and they're gonna catch us in it by

Eli:

bringing home a date that is different than what we anticipated or deciding

Eli:

that they feel differently about their identity or their sexuality.

Eli:

And that might be really scary for us.

Eli:

But then we have to pause and be like, okay, I'm scared about this because why?

Eli:

What information do I have?

Eli:

Is that information from actual lived experiences with a diverse array of

Eli:

people from this particular group?

Eli:

Or is that information from people that are not part of that group that have told

Eli:

me a story about that group of people?

Eli:

I mean, really we're trying to teach our kids to think critically and to

Eli:

reflect and then to have a capacity to say, I didn't know all of that.

Eli:

I'm learning still.

Eli:

I thought this about that.

Eli:

I just learned something new.

Eli:

Let's learn together.

Eli:

Let's be curious together.

Destini:

I want us to do that.

Destini:

I want us to be able to say that I didn't know that.

Destini:

That wasn't my intention.

Destini:

I was ignorant on that subject because I think I recognize

Destini:

the cognitive dissonance.

Destini:

I recognize when my values are not in alignment with

Destini:

my actions and my behaviors,

Destini:

but there, there's shame around that.

Destini:

If I'm feeling bad now, my split second thing is to now make that group bad,

Destini:

and that's what is happening and we have to take the shame out of it.

Destini:

You are experiencing cognitive dissonance.

Destini:

If your values, your beliefs say that we're all created equally, and yet

Destini:

you hate a whole group of people.

Destini:

I know it's in there, but cognitive dissonance, living at the same time of

Destini:

shame is a very difficult to manage.

Destini:

And so I think that that's important for us to address the

Destini:

shame piece that's under it.

Destini:

It is okay.

Destini:

It is okay in the sense that it's okay to admit it and it's really

Destini:

important to, to tell the truth about that bias, and I believe.

Eli:

I wanna point something out.

Eli:

It is a very small, small group of people who identifies with feelings of hate.

Eli:

A very small group of people.

Eli:

Most people wouldn't say I hate X, Y, or Z. Most hate, like the

Eli:

purest of what that is, is fear.

Eli:

So I think if you wanna know who you're biased about, think

Eli:

about who you fear the most.

Eli:

And I that is, that doesn't mean there, there isn't a reason to fear

Eli:

certain individuals in a group, right?

Eli:

And, but it should be based on the actions that you can witness

Eli:

and that you have experienced.

Eli:

And it is towards those individual people within that group as

Eli:

opposed to the entire group.

Eli:

So if you are afraid of an entire group, you've been taught

Eli:

to fear that group of people.

Eli:

And those are the seeds of hate.

Eli:

The seeds of hate are always I want you to be squished.

Eli:

'cause I'm afraid you're gonna squish

Destini:

Yeah.

Eli:

for, for, the majority of

Destini:

Because what parts of our brain are offline when fear is online?

Destini:

Our rationalization?

Destini:

Yes.

Destini:

And it's how we make sense of things that when we're not afraid, we

Destini:

would never, ever make sense of.

Destini:

We gotta be able to recognize that you are coming from a place of fear

Destini:

and it's making you not look at this problem from a creative lens.

Destini:

Your creative thinking is off.

Destini:

Your critical thinking is off right now.

Destini:

Your empathy is off your perspective.

Destini:

Taking your cognitive flexibility is off.

Destini:

That is so important that you're recognizing that it's

Destini:

coming from a place of fear.

Eli:

Yeah.

Eli:

I think it helps us have compassion for ourselves and for other people too.

Eli:

And that, and it keeps us out of that good guy, bad guy, false dichotomy

Eli:

that says All the hate is out

Eli:

there.

Eli:

i'm just protecting myself.

Eli:

Versus, wait a minute, how do we get into these messes?

Eli:

You know?

Eli:

We get into these messes because we're afraid, and then we make conclusions

Eli:

without all of the information because we are in a bias without examining it.

Eli:

And then we take actions.

Eli:

And those actions are often exclusionary, accusational, dehumanizing.

Eli:

And then in the worst case scenario, justify violent force.

Destini:

my goodness.

Destini:

How do we do that?

Destini:

How do we, how do we separate a bad thought from a bad person?

Destini:

individuals, as ourselves.

Destini:

I think that's the point of this conversation of hearing more people say

Destini:

what you said at the top hearing more people be honest about their biases.

Destini:

I had a conversation with someone recently and I said, that's,

Destini:

I said, that's homophobic.

Destini:

And they were like, that's not homophobic.

Destini:

I'm not homophobic.

Destini:

And we were talking, we were watching a movie and two men came on the

Destini:

screen and he just like walked

Destini:

up and kissed him

Destini:

and he was just like, oh God.

Destini:

And I was like, that's inappropriate.

Destini:

You don't

Destini:

see

Destini:

that

Eli:

Like if, it was a heterosexual couple, would you

Eli:

have said, said the same thing?

Eli:

Oh God, kissing in the world.

Eli:

Probably not.

Eli:

And so then,

Eli:

you know, this goes back to the discomfort versus

Eli:

You are uncomfortable because it isn't familiar for you.

Eli:

If it doesn't bother you that, you know the little mermaid kisses Prince Eric

Eli:

in a children's film, then why is it bothering you in an adult film that

Eli:

two adults chose to kiss each other?

Eli:

Well, because you've been trained to look at heterosexual intimacy as

Eli:

And so it's uncomfortable.

Eli:

It's just like latonya.

Destini:

just like, what's up?

Eli:

seen this enough to know

Destini:

There's nothing wrong with it.

Destini:

Right?

Destini:

So I had

Destini:

to pause the

Destini:

I had to go backwards on the conversation, right?

Destini:

Because I led with that.

Destini:

And so we weren't gonna get anywhere with me saying, I said that as homophobic and

Destini:

you are gonna hear your homophobic person.

Destini:

I said, now I had to separate that from like, I know you, I know how you

Destini:

move and interact through the world.

Destini:

I know that that's not who you are as a person.

Destini:

I'm calling out.

Destini:

A very specific behavior.

Destini:

I'm not judging you, I'm speaking on what just happened.

Destini:

And so he's a white guy, traditionally dates black women.

Destini:

I said, if you were with somebody that you care about that you know isn't

Destini:

racist or you believe isn't racist, and a interracial couple came on the screen

Destini:

and they just shared a quick kiss at a coffee shop and they went, Ugh, what

Destini:

would you think about that behavior?

Destini:

And he was like,

Destini:

get it.

Destini:

I totally get it.

Destini:

Because I'm sure he has family members that he has an affinity for that

Destini:

he knows, cares about black people.

Destini:

But there are still certain things that are based on lack of exposure and

Destini:

each constructing those conversations where you are a good, you could

Destini:

be a good person with bias.

Destini:

You could be, you can care about that group so deeply.

Destini:

You can care about people and you can still have biases and it

Destini:

doesn't make you a bad person.

Destini:

I think it makes it easier to recognize the cognitive.

Destini:

Because I can have that same conversation with somebody else.

Destini:

And if they're wrapped in shame, they're going to justify it.

Destini:

They're going to dodge the conversation, they're gonna dodge the examples.

Destini:

They're going, 'cause rationalization is off because fear is turned

Destini:

on, shame is turned on.

Destini:

And so I

Destini:

think on one end we have to be willing to take the shame away.

Destini:

And on the other end, we have to be willing to, when we're having

Destini:

these conversations with people that we love and care about, not

Destini:

come from a place of shaming.

Destini:

'cause we're not gonna get anywhere.

Eli:

Right.

Eli:

And maybe even bringing in that, shared humanity of that.

Eli:

Hey, can we pause for a minute?

Eli:

You just had a reaction.

Eli:

I, and I noticed it, and I felt it, and I've had reactions like

Eli:

that to things in the past myself.

Eli:

And could we get curious together about that reaction that you just had?

Eli:

And can I share some thoughts?

Eli:

For me also, I have very, important people in my life who belong

Eli:

to the LGBQ community and who I adore and who have gone through

Eli:

awful,

Eli:

awful experiences because of the bias against them.

Eli:

And so I feel protective.

Eli:

So even saying like, Hey, I'm, I'm feeling really protective

Eli:

of these people in my life who I adore, you know, and naming them.

Eli:

And I, I, they're not here.

Eli:

And also I don't want them to have to defend this, but can

Eli:

I point something out to you?

Eli:

Can we get curious about it?

Eli:

Because someone helped me get curious about it in myself.

Eli:

It's not because you're bad and I'm good, but I think that, I think

Eli:

there's, when you scoff at two, people can essentially kissing like that.

Eli:

Um, you know, I think it sends a message that their love isn't as real or as human

Eli:

you know, like, can we talk about this?

Destini:

I'm just focused on the message that it sends.

Destini:

And that's what you did when you said, what if you had a friend

Destini:

in the car that was Indian versus focusing on their character?

Eli:

Yeah.

Eli:

If I had said this is racist, I, I don't think any, any of those little

Eli:

boys in the car would've been able to relate to that and, and go, you're

Eli:

right.

Destini:

give anybody that

Destini:

don't either.

Destini:

Yeah.

Destini:

Impact versus intention.

Destini:

Our biases sometimes can jump over our intentions and have

Destini:

a completely different impact.

Destini:

And that's important to acknowledge and address.

Eli:

It's messy.

Eli:

I'm aware I talked to you before we started recording of just

Eli:

having a conversation about bias in this day and age feels scary.

Eli:

Like, I know that there will be more negative defacing comments on this

Eli:

episode than there will be on, on my episodes that aren't involving, dynamics

Eli:

around race or identity or gender.

Eli:

This will.

Eli:

Bring up things for people.

Eli:

And I think the reason it does so deeply is because we have been

Eli:

trained to believe you're either on the good team or the bad team.

Eli:

And sometimes people think the good team is the team that is calling out, calling

Eli:

out, calling out, and then, but then there are people on the other side that

Eli:

are like, no, that's not the good team.

Eli:

That's that that team is shaming and it's misunderstanding.

Eli:

I guess I, I wanna dream of a world for our children where someone can say,

Eli:

ouch, that's that hurts and this is why.

Eli:

And the other person can go, tell me more.

Eli:

What am I missing?

Eli:

Instead of, how dare you accuse me of that?

Eli:

And also instead of, you are this, you know, it's like, this hurts.

Eli:

Here's why it hurts.

Eli:

Here's the history behind why it hurts.

Eli:

Here's the context in which it could cause me harm.

Eli:

And the other person says.

Eli:

I didn't know that, or I, I haven't, I haven't learned that.

Eli:

Teach me more.

Eli:

I want to know more.

Eli:

I don't know.

Eli:

I'm an idealist,

Destini:

you can for sure create it in your little ecosystem, in your home and

Destini:

in the community that you're creating online and in their communities.

Destini:

And so I think that it is, it's important work to have these kinds

Destini:

of conversations and to be more.

Destini:

Aware of our biases because it allows us to own ourselves.

Destini:

Like at the end of the day, I want parents to not

Destini:

just parent well and raise great kids.

Destini:

I want you to have the fullest expression of yourself and the fullest

Destini:

life and the fullest experiences.

Destini:

And again, some of these things are keeping us safe and some of 'em are

Destini:

keeping us small, and keeping us from being able to Yeah, exactly.

Destini:

And our little echo chambers, none of us are, are all right

Destini:

and none of us are all wrong.

Destini:

And it's okay for you to be a dynamic human.

Destini:

And I think that maybe, social media makes us feel like we have to be either

Destini:

with the good guys or the bad guys.

Destini:

So divisive.

Destini:

But the truth is, in any conversation.

Destini:

There's nuance in any conversation.

Destini:

You're not all good and you're not all bad.

Destini:

And that shouldn't even be the focus.

Destini:

I hate, I hate those words so much.

Destini:

I hate the good guy, bad guy, the right and wrong, because I think it keeps

Destini:

us from being able to tell the truth.

Destini:

Because if I tell this truth makes me a bad person, then I am going to deny it.

Destini:

It doesn't even have to make sense.

Destini:

I, I remember when I was a kid, like I used to just say like,

Destini:

deny, deny, deny until you die.

Destini:

Like I would be caught red handed because I knew that if I admitted

Destini:

I did this, that meant I was bad.

Destini:

That meant that I was bad.

Destini:

And I would rather make zero sense than for you to be right about me being bad.

Destini:

And I think that's the conversation right now.

Destini:

I would rather dance around.

Destini:

I would rather, something contradictory to my values.

Destini:

I would rather lie.

Destini:

Than to be associated with what the world thinks is bad.

Destini:

But then it, it keeps you from actually doing the thing.

Eli:

And having authentic connection, you know, if I came

Eli:

forward in, in our dynamic, in our dialogue, and I pretended that.

Eli:

I had never been trained to, to think differently about, you

Eli:

know, white folk versus black folk versus other groups of color.

Eli:

If I had pretended that we wouldn't have that connection.

Eli:

And if you pretended that you feel safe and seen and comfortable around

Eli:

every white person that, you know, we couldn't have authentic connection.

Eli:

Part of the authentic connection is in being like, this is messy.

Eli:

You have a experience that I don't have, I have an experience that you don't have.

Eli:

And we both know that,

Eli:

We see that, We feel that.

Eli:

And so how do we create the constraints that allow us to safely take care

Eli:

of each other and hear each other and see each other, you know?

Eli:

And it's, it, it, it, it's a little scary,

Destini:

authenticity around our biases leads to more genuine connections.

Destini:

I feel that with you a thousand percent.

Destini:

Not only does it allow you to allow me to trust you when you're being honest,

Destini:

but I think that it also gives me an opportunity to be a trusted space.

Destini:

When you share and you give someone the opportunity to be able to hold.

Destini:

Your truth and your honesty.

Destini:

We've had conversations about me experiencing white woman tears, tears

Destini:

and not knowing what to do with it.

Destini:

And you know, me having to navigate that there were times where I

Destini:

would've never felt comfortable saying that to a white woman.

Destini:

And so the fact that I was able to express that that was my truth, that

Destini:

was the reality of the situation, and you'd be able to hold space for it

Destini:

and it not be a good or bad thing.

Destini:

That just was my honest experience, makes me trust you even more,

Destini:

makes you in a safer space.

Destini:

So I think that's important.

Destini:

If it's kids with parents that you know are in their biases.

Destini:

If it's people that are having conversations, if it's on social media,

Destini:

I think that if you have the courage to lean in with vulnerability and admit

Destini:

when something didn't land, admit when something may have had a negative impact.

Destini:

You give yourself the opportunity to.

Destini:

Experience, someone holding capacity for that.

Destini:

and you give yourself an opportunity to actually heal whatever is beneath that

Eli:

I adore you.

Eli:

Thank you for being here in this conversation and sharing your

Eli:

thoughts and your wisdom, and most of all, that unbelievable capacity

Eli:

that you have to hold nuance and complexity, and to connect with.

Eli:

A, a whole load of various different experiences in the world all at once.

Eli:

Where can people find you?

Eli:

Because I know that everyone who just listened to this and didn't already

Eli:

have a deep love for you has now fallen in love and is like, give me more

Destini:

I'm just destiny and everywhere on all the places, Instagram,

Destini:

TikTok, YouTube, it's just just me.

Eli:

Perfect.

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About the Podcast

How To Deal
With The Attachment Nerd, Eli Harwood
How To Deal is the podcast for parents who want to raise emotionally healthy kids in a world full of messy moments. Therapist and bestselling author Eli Harwood (aka The Attachment Nerd) brings you real stories, expert advice, and practical tools to build stronger relationships with your children—and yourself. Attachmentnerd.com